[noreast]

Fisheries managers up and down the coast, as well as most of the major recreational organizations agree that the striped bass fishery is either restored or on it?s way to restoration, yet the fight continues over how the bass should be managed.

In past few weeks there?s been a number of topics on these boards related to that issue, and I?m curious why we all devote so much attention to the one healthy inshore fishery, while the rest of our inshore species are being decimated.

We will always need to keep a close eye on the management of striped bass to make sure that it?s not exploited, but isn?t it time to move on to more pressing issues?

Take winter flounder for instance. If recreational anglers and representatives put the same amount of pressure on our fisheries managers on flounder as we have with bass, there?s probably a good chance that we could bring them back.

Sure some groups have taken steps to try to restore our winter flounder, or blackfish, but if we approached it with the same passion as the striper, we may actually get something positive accomplished.

Yet we continue to exert all of our energies to the healthiest fishery around.

Why?

 

[MakoMatt]

George, I agree with most of what you are saying, but would add that I think everything, every species of fish native to our waters, needs to be looked at collectivly in any management plan. Yes, I agree that the Striper population is at an all time high, but I'm not 100% sure this is a good thing. What you say??? Has this guy lost his marbles??? Maybe, but let me throw this out. Is it possible that PART of the reason the Winter Flounder is suffering so much is that they have become Bass food?

I don't know the answer to that question, I'm just throwing it out as an example. I would think that it is in part true, but it is of course not the the only reason. I believe there is/was a delicate balance to the marine ecosystem and we have upset that balance. Big fish eat little fish, etc., etc, and the waters that the Striper inhabits are the breeding grounds for many of our fish. In other words, I don't think we can solve the problem 1 species at a time, but needs to be looked at in the BIG picture.

Just my $.02
MakoMatt

 

[612727]

Amendment Six / Effort shift

Amendment Six (the first real time in 5 years to have a say on how the long term game would be played out)

Effort shift (as we see restrictions on some species, more folks are targeting bass)

It is what it is, Amendment Six is over. You will hear less and less on this. The NY public made it quite clear at our DEC state hearing that there was a distinct preference for reducing mortality for more chances for larger fish over the long haul.

Instead we got status quo, plus a 30% increase in the commercial harvest, plus the very real possibility of extending the bass season in increasing the bag limit, both here and in MA.

As I said in another thread, I only hope mother nature does not repeat herself and give us some bad spawns like in the past, because now with no other fisheries to fall back on, it will be a mother to pry those fish away from the hungry hands of the fishing community.

 

[wader]

SPEAKING OF FLOUNDER AS BASS SNACKS

They'll pretty much go after anything. Last season I was doing a 6 pack out of Montauk & what to my wondering eyes did appear?

(At this point you're thinkin' this is somehow Christmas related)

A large splash to my left. For about 10 minutes I was watching a fluke going air borne with a bass hot on his tail. These two kept it up for like I say 10 minutes or so. Both continually clearing the water. Eventually stopped. Either the bass managed to get the fluke in his mouth (pretty big fluke too - close to a keeper) or they both became exhausted from the effort & gave up.

 

[PaddleOn]

I think MakoMatt has hit the nail on the head!
Bringing back one species will lower others and the fine balancing act that needs to be done is ?
Impossible to my way of thinking.

On top of it all is natures way of ebbing and flowing...............peaking and bottoming out.............the natural cycle of life itself on earth.

I am very unqualified to speak on the fishery subject except for the fact that at 45 I have seen different fish come and go..............and come back again.
But not allways!

Well..............just a few thoughts from me.I've no answers but it is an interesting subject to follow.

 

[186logic]

Most of the conversations are about bringing back the Big Bass, not the population in general.

 

[Capthookem]

I agree with MakoMatt. I think as a society, we look to protect things that are majestic (marlin) cute (dolphins) or important to us (stripers) while we show little or no interest in the rest of the marine system. I think if we spent more time trying to save the bunker and the butterfish, the creatures mentioned earlier would do much better, as would everything else in the ocean. The key to fisheries management is balance.

Capt. H

 

[MakoMike]

George,
Very good point. I think that those focusing on the population of big bass miss the point that there never have been huge numbers of big bass around, and that there have always been, even during the lean years, some big bass around. Almost every year, even during the lean years, there have been several 50+ pound bass weighed in in Montauk. The guys carping about the lack of big bass, are mostly those fishing the shallow water where big bass don't normally hang out. I know that Mcreynolds record came from the surf, but look at all the other records. Recently there was even an 80+ pound fish caught in the ocean off Virginia. 40+ pound fish always have been, an will continue to be rare. We would be much better off concentrating on restoring other fisheries rather than being obsessed with helping the googans catch a 40+ pound bass.

 

[noreast]

JohnP,

I think most recreational anglers will agree that Amendment 6 was very disappointing and any further increase in striper mortality is a roll of the dice. Not something we should be doing at this stage of the plan.

MakoMat

I agree that the overall fishery needs to be considered when developing these various management plans, but the decline in flounder had nothing to with striped bass. The first signs of trouble with winter flounder was evident when striped bass were scarce themselves. I imagine the bass would have a negative effect on flounder recovery, but that?s why we may need more drastic measures to bring them back.

186,

You?re right, first it was bring back the bass, now it?s bring back the big bass. Don?t get me wrong, I?m not saying it?s a bad thing. But how do we get emotions up for our other struggling fisheries?

 

[186logic]

MakoMike...fact-50+ bass are not as prevalent as they once were. Fact-very large bass frequent shallow water. Fact-googans will never catch 50+ fish...well, almost never. George, certain other fisheries most definitely need more attention than this one. I am not a bottom fisher for example though, so although I still care I'm not as passionate about it.

 

[612727]

Socio Reasons

George,

How do we get our emotions up about the other species? Hmm, the zillion dollar question.

In general, rec anglers are not that into what is going on with fisheries and conservation. I'd say, the striped bass following, primarily the surf crowd, makes up the bulk of the 'concerned fishers' in the community. Now why that is, I'll never know. Socio / demographic?
Striped bass fishermen often fish for the sport of it, and filling the cooler has no bearing (sometimes, but not often). For these folks, its more important to have as good a fishey as possible out there. And if these active fishers spend upwards of 200 days a year fishing for bass, well then there is a reason do to everything possible to have as good a fishery as possible.

For other fisheries, the desire to bring home the meat is much higher, so any deisres for conservation are counterbalanced by desires to be able to take fish home. I mean, do I really wanna go out for some C&R porgy fishing? nah.

You dont see Tog clubs or Seabass clubs or Flounder Associations. Ok, you do have your Tuna clubs, though unlike the Striper Clubs, where selling fish gets you kicked out, I'm told selling fish is often Ok for the tuna clubs.

The only other place I see similar levels of conservation/concern/action is in Freshwater.

Another interesting one is Atlantic Salmon.

In the end so few people give a ****, but those that do are generally your bass fishermen.

 

[noreast]

Well done John. It's sad but I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[624713]

I'm guilty

I often get passionate about the things I love and I love fishing for bass. Screaming drag pulled hard by the big fish puts smile on my face all the time. It just never gets old. During the season I fish 4-5 nights a week, than go to work with red eyes
Would I do it for flounder? Never. Not that there is anything wrong with flounder, porgy or siebass fishing but those are more like fishing for food then for sport.
All species are important, but I don't have enough time to read about those fisheries hence I have no idea what's wrong an have nothing to say about it.
I prefer to read the numbers and reports and formulate opinions by myself because this is something I care about, that's why when Fisheries Managers say everything is great I't not good enough for me. They have been wrong before and correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess they managed to nearly wipe out some fisheries in the past.

 

[LkyLindy]

Floundering Flounders

The winter flounders are gone because of the offshore dragging fleet. Forget about the stripers decimating them-that's ridiculous.Thats not to say that by tinkering with the different species that we are not upsetting the natural balances-However not in the winter flounder vs striper situation.The comms have ruined the rec inshore flounder fishery- period

 

[MakoMatt]

LOL, I knew this was going to happen. I didn’t mean to say that Flounders are at an all time low due to the Striper population, was only using that as an example, albeit a bad one at that, although it would probably slow down their recovery to some small degree. I was only trying to show that there is a delicate balance in nature that has taken 10’s of thousands of years to set it’s own equilibrium, and in the last 100 years, more notably in the last 25, we have managed to upset that, turning it upside down might be a better description.

IMHO, any management plan that would make any sense would have to include ALL species of marine life, from plankton to the whales, as they are all inter-dependent on each other in the food chain. Also, equally important in my mind is habitat, as we are destroying that at an alarming rate.

To get off the subject for just a moment, anyone have any thoughts as to what effect these clam boats are having ripping up the bottom and turning it inside out? Just curious.

MakoMatt

 

[LkyLindy]

Topsy Turvy

Matt-

You are absolutely correct.It is a scary situation that exists with the destruction of our marine resourses.Everybody has an opinion but nobody knows what the long term solution is .The beauracracies that exist are a joke and it seems they just guess as to what the true stats are(actually I've heard they ask the magic 8 ball for the answers).I hate to be a pessimist but the future of our sport and fishing lives, and more importantly our childrens, looks bleak

 

[MakoMatt]

N.M.F.S. hard at work planning OUR allotments.

MakoMatt

 

[Capthookem]

MakoMatt,
Where did you get that picture of Lilfish?

Capt. H

 

[624340]

Some very good points Joh, but let me play devil's advocate. I think money has a lot to do with it. Over the fall and early winter I've spent a fair amount of money on new gear. a couple of new graphite rods, a new wetsuit, a radio and other minor pieces of equipment. When all is said and done it might amount to a thousand dollars or so. More if I decided to buy some Van Stahls. Many of you have quite a bit of money invested in gear. Now I don't know the cost of all this suff, but I'm sure a new pickup is in the 30,000 range. Add in a cap and I'm sure some of these rigs are in excess of 40. Most of these rigs are adorned with four or more rods, a closet full of plugs, and waders and wetsuits for all occaisions. For the guys that are still working and don't get to do much traveling, these campers are a second vehicle. No bass, very likely no campers.

Maybe you prefer boating. I got pretty lucky in the mid 90s and put together a nice package for about seven grand, plus another couple in electronics. I live in an apartment in the city, so before I put a drop of gas in the boat I'm looking at three grand for summer, winter, seasonal repairs and painting. Get a bigger boat and the price goes up. No bass, no boat, offshore fishing is not within my means and not something I care to do alone.

For now I'm just slumming it in my pickup. I know I would not have bought a 4X4 to go bluefishing. I would not have spent the estimated six grand a year to keep and maintain a boat at Montauk to go fluke fishing. I know many people have a **** of a lot of cash invested in their rigs and tackle and they spend most if not all of their time bass fishing. No bass and you end up with a lot of gear collecting dust.

Now I'm not saying that money is the prime reason for the concern, only that it is a consideration when buying new toys. Once we have said toys we'd like to protect our investment. Most working class people tend to spend a little more than we're comfortable with. While I enjoyed offshore fishing, it is not within everyones means. If you have a family, or a wife who gwets seasick a boat can be an unreasonable luxury. If you put in a lot of hours at work, or work six days a week, offshore fishing may only be a pipe dream. Then you need to get a crew, sometimes easier said than done.

I think the striped bass is every mans fish. Tuna are a **** of a lot tougher and are good eating. A boat is required. If you just want large fish sharking might be you bag. Need a boat though it might be more within the budget. Not all are good to eat. Fluke and flounder are good eating but not much sport. They can be caught in a variety of ways but a ten pound fluke is a bragging sized fish. Bluefish will outfight and out jump a bass on a per pound basis. The small ones are decent eating, but not great. A fifteen pounder is large and when there are a lot of blues around you can go through a ton of gear. Bass can be caught in any number of way. Pick your poison, surf, boat, back bays, rivers and estuaries, sandy beach, or rocky coast. Gear can range from fly tackle to high surf gear, live bait, or chunks, and artificials too numerous to list. They attain a pretty nice size and are good eating. Many fish are tougher, but they can be pretty spectacular at times with their tail thrashing in shallow waters. It's a nice looking fish that seems to be the preferred specimen in fish anatomy diagrams. Why is that? They are not at the top of any single category, but rate reasonably high in all., and probably no other fish on the coast can be caught in as many ways in as many habitats including fresh water. If all I wanted was food fish I'd probably stick to fluke. If I wanted large hard fighting fish, I'd spend my time tuna fishing.But if I wanted to utilize the most of my gear, in a wide variety of ways, in a wide variety of habitat, at an affordable price, no other fish in the northeast can fit the bill like the striped bass. It is everymans fish and an important resource.

Steve

 

[615579]

What an enticing stream.
The short answer is probably that the Striper offers the best return. Good fun to catch and sensational when landing a big fish. Somehow Flounder don't really live up to the experience. This said any fish on light line is an equitable experience, however I do not beleive that the angling fraternity is ONLY concerned with Striped Bass numbers, but is concerned about all species.

Our challenge as custodians of the environment is to find a balance between commercial harvesting, recreational pleasure and a balanced and sustainable fishery for our future generations. How we achieve this is a million dollar question which begs many sacrafices.

Somebody asked about harvesting clams..Bingo. These creatures filter the bays and do a great deal to support the fishery, without them we'll see a decline in a significant number of species, which includes flounder and others. So perhaps we need to review the ferry channels to fire island, dredging displaces the clam beds....destroying the spores and consequently denuding the replensihment, maybe way more devastating than a seasons harvest. This just an evocative thought relevant to one species, there must be many others.

I understand that the Mute Swan makes a meal of "crab grass", there must be a number of fish species that enjoy the crab spawn? Maybe their numbers are in decline too due to the impact of this alien bird?

Also our land use and consequent run off that dispenses directly into the back bay water, GSB, Moriches etc, any ideas on the impact?

We face many problems that all point to steadily dropping fishery numbers, our efforts of limiting keeprs obviously help towards sustaining numbers, however I sence that the greatest contribution is going to be a complete overhaul of the way we live our lives, not necessarily "us as anglers", but us the disinterested citizens along the Eastern shores.
My 2 cents worth.