On wednesday the 11th I went to the Cape with some co-workers try for a giant tuna. We went to the BB bouy 55 miles SE. On the way up I read an article in Sport Fishing Mag on catching giants. The article suggested finding a trawler and following behind, at a safe distance, as the giants have learned to follow picking up the "leftovers". When we trolled to the spot I was disgusted by what I saw. At least 100 stripers still alive, floating on the surface, with stomachs bloated from being ripped from 300'. I understand they will get in trouble if caught with the stripers,but this just doesn't seem right. The private boats were gaffing what they could. The whole thing disgusted me. Isn't there a better way?
trawler's dumping stripers
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Unfortunately at this time NO. This topic was brought up here last year when a trawler outside of FI inlet dumped a load of stripers it caught as by-catch. The fish were floating around the inlet area for a couple of days and a lot of people saw the waste first hand.
At that time I contacted the DEC Marine fisheries unit and was informed that the by-catch mortalities of stripers are figured into the total take allowed by NMFS.
I would rather see the commercial guys keep them for market than just throw them away, but that leaves the door open to an illegal fishery. Maybe in the future they will be able to develop a net that better targets the species of fish they are after. I saw a cool video clip on a specially designed squid net that greatly reduces by-catch, but I am sure incidents like that will still happen.
At that time I contacted the DEC Marine fisheries unit and was informed that the by-catch mortalities of stripers are figured into the total take allowed by NMFS.
I would rather see the commercial guys keep them for market than just throw them away, but that leaves the door open to an illegal fishery. Maybe in the future they will be able to develop a net that better targets the species of fish they are after. I saw a cool video clip on a specially designed squid net that greatly reduces by-catch, but I am sure incidents like that will still happen.
Explain Something Please
All right help me out please.
Why can't a vessel targeting one fish keep another? Is it something the company owner decides or something some Federal/State agency decides? I assume it is a federal/State decision b/c everyone mentions that it is illegal. But what reasoning does the agencies offer for this.
somo
All right help me out please.
Why can't a vessel targeting one fish keep another? Is it something the company owner decides or something some Federal/State agency decides? I assume it is a federal/State decision b/c everyone mentions that it is illegal. But what reasoning does the agencies offer for this.
somo
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It's not that they can't keep the fish, but it has to be within all the limits, sizes,seasons, and other regulations, and often it is not. The catch 22 is that if they said they could keep and fish caught as bycatch, ( which sounds reasonable, logical, and efficient ) then there would be no way to control any limits or seasons, boats would just call everything bycatch and clean out the oceans even faster than they do now.
Somoan, as Doughboy pointed out, allowing the comms to sell their by catch will lead to abuses. It would be too easy for them to have a load of a stripers and call it "by catch", then take them to market. In regard to your question, almost all commercially valuable species have quotas, gear limits, daily limits, etc., that are set by the NMFS (just like we do). Before most of these regs are put into place, they have public hearings to hear input from fishermen, envirowackos and whoever else cares to be heard. Hope this helps...
Gamakatsu
Gamakatsu
Isn't there a better way?
I witnessed this first hand last year and stood mortified and sick to my stomach as my then 5-yr old daughter asked: daddy, why aren't those fish swimming? Are they dead? The she said, Look, dad, some of them are still moving, can't you help them? How could I possibly explain that they were bycatch..... and how infinitely helpless did I feel regarding the fact that there was nothing I could do to help these crushed fish, or to stop it any time in the near future. Huge bass floating everywhere, fish the likes of which I have never seen except in pictures and they were THROWN AWAY.
While I understand that generations of men have been born and bred to harvest the oceans, and that tradition dictates much of "how it's always been done", generations also picked and grew tobacco under the guise it wasn't harmful, now they're paying billions. How will the trawler captains give the oceans life again once it has been depleted?
After all of the atrocities we have seen- thousands of bycatch stripers floating dead, shark species disappearing, big marlin now start at 100lbs, when they used to AVERAGE 300, coral reefs disappearing, mussel and clam beds obliterated, nets trapping everything from manatee to great whites - when will it be addressed for the mass murder of our natural resources that it is?
I have read countless stories of how ships with a dozen men would hand-line thousands of fish for the market, with no bycatch and no waste. Why can't some compromise be reached?
I'm sure they will argue that the net saves the cost of 10 men, but at whose expense- the ocean's, that's who. But there is no gate that can be erected in the sea, no policing of waters 60 miles offshore, so why shouldn't they continue to obliterate species of fish and exceed quotas? The gate is open... The irony here is that they now have to travel huge distances to catch enough fish and I would love to see a documentary on how much is really discarded in the course of filling their quotas. My guess is three times to ten times that which they keep. For all the efficiency they quote, it seems awfully inefficient in targeting the fish they're actually after.
The question: how do they sleep at night?
I witnessed this first hand last year and stood mortified and sick to my stomach as my then 5-yr old daughter asked: daddy, why aren't those fish swimming? Are they dead? The she said, Look, dad, some of them are still moving, can't you help them? How could I possibly explain that they were bycatch..... and how infinitely helpless did I feel regarding the fact that there was nothing I could do to help these crushed fish, or to stop it any time in the near future. Huge bass floating everywhere, fish the likes of which I have never seen except in pictures and they were THROWN AWAY.
While I understand that generations of men have been born and bred to harvest the oceans, and that tradition dictates much of "how it's always been done", generations also picked and grew tobacco under the guise it wasn't harmful, now they're paying billions. How will the trawler captains give the oceans life again once it has been depleted?
After all of the atrocities we have seen- thousands of bycatch stripers floating dead, shark species disappearing, big marlin now start at 100lbs, when they used to AVERAGE 300, coral reefs disappearing, mussel and clam beds obliterated, nets trapping everything from manatee to great whites - when will it be addressed for the mass murder of our natural resources that it is?
I have read countless stories of how ships with a dozen men would hand-line thousands of fish for the market, with no bycatch and no waste. Why can't some compromise be reached?
I'm sure they will argue that the net saves the cost of 10 men, but at whose expense- the ocean's, that's who. But there is no gate that can be erected in the sea, no policing of waters 60 miles offshore, so why shouldn't they continue to obliterate species of fish and exceed quotas? The gate is open... The irony here is that they now have to travel huge distances to catch enough fish and I would love to see a documentary on how much is really discarded in the course of filling their quotas. My guess is three times to ten times that which they keep. For all the efficiency they quote, it seems awfully inefficient in targeting the fish they're actually after.
The question: how do they sleep at night?
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ALLOW ME TO OPEN PANDORA'S BOX
I think the answer, and a lot of people won't like this, but I think the answer is in allowing "Sportsman" to sell their catch. Fishing with rod and reel is not an efficient enough way for most people to make a living at it, most species anyway, but it is the best way to reduce bycatch.
The commericial guys think they have some sort of God given right to stay in business, something that you cannot find in most other lines of work. Our Government coddles these guys, farmers too, I think it is some sort of misguided reasoning on protecting America's food sources.
Keep quotas, maybe they need to be changed somewhat, but allow "Sportsman" to sell their catch, and let the chips fall where they may. I think you would see a LOT of the commericial guys fold up. Let them find other ways to make a living just like a million other Americans who have lost their jobs for a million different reasons.
The whole industry is set up to fustrate you and I from getting into it. If I were a baker, and wanted to repair cars on the side, I could, no problem, and a thousand other things like that, but.......you want to sell a Tuna, then forget it, you need this, that, and the other thing, including survival suits which you don't even need if you run a 6 pack.
Just my $.02
I think the answer, and a lot of people won't like this, but I think the answer is in allowing "Sportsman" to sell their catch. Fishing with rod and reel is not an efficient enough way for most people to make a living at it, most species anyway, but it is the best way to reduce bycatch.
The commericial guys think they have some sort of God given right to stay in business, something that you cannot find in most other lines of work. Our Government coddles these guys, farmers too, I think it is some sort of misguided reasoning on protecting America's food sources.
Keep quotas, maybe they need to be changed somewhat, but allow "Sportsman" to sell their catch, and let the chips fall where they may. I think you would see a LOT of the commericial guys fold up. Let them find other ways to make a living just like a million other Americans who have lost their jobs for a million different reasons.
The whole industry is set up to fustrate you and I from getting into it. If I were a baker, and wanted to repair cars on the side, I could, no problem, and a thousand other things like that, but.......you want to sell a Tuna, then forget it, you need this, that, and the other thing, including survival suits which you don't even need if you run a 6 pack.
Just my $.02
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If "sportsman" could sell theur catch the abuses would be far worse than they are now. Go to any dock where people totally ignore all regulations and now imagine if they had a market for the illegal catch ! I agree that some commercial fisherman will and should go the way of blacksmiths and teamsters, and should not get special protection beyond assistance with transition to another profession, but putting recreational fisherman in competition will only hurt the situation. Sportsman who sell their catch are not sportsman anyway, they are commercials without a license !
There has to be a better way, bycatch is a horrible waste of the resources from every standpoint.
There has to be a better way, bycatch is a horrible waste of the resources from every standpoint.
Excellent discussion.
Now this is the type of discussion I have hoped to have since posting on this board. There is a great deal of intelligence at work within these boards and if we could put our collective heads together with guys who spearhead such efforts, perhaps we could make a difference.
Any ideas?
Now this is the type of discussion I have hoped to have since posting on this board. There is a great deal of intelligence at work within these boards and if we could put our collective heads together with guys who spearhead such efforts, perhaps we could make a difference.
Any ideas?
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Striper, at all these docks you speak of where people totally ignore all regulations, where are they, who is ignoring what regulations, and what on earth does that have to do with selling fish, of a certain species, size, and quantity, to a licensed fish broker??
You said that "Sportsman who sell their catch are not sportsman anyway, they are commercials without a license". Well, if you do that now you are also a criminal, but that's besides the point. People should be allowed to sell fish if they so choose but it needs to be regulated. If others do not wish to sell fish they don't have to. If others still feel that "sportsman" who catch fish and sell them are not really "sportsman" let them feel that way, who cares.
Bycatch would be reduced 1000% this way and the American people would have better products to choose from at their local markets.
You said that "Sportsman who sell their catch are not sportsman anyway, they are commercials without a license". Well, if you do that now you are also a criminal, but that's besides the point. People should be allowed to sell fish if they so choose but it needs to be regulated. If others do not wish to sell fish they don't have to. If others still feel that "sportsman" who catch fish and sell them are not really "sportsman" let them feel that way, who cares.
Bycatch would be reduced 1000% this way and the American people would have better products to choose from at their local markets.
How to regulate the recreationals?
Mako,
I believe allowing recreational fishermen to sell their catch would be a mistake without considering the following:
I am all for the reduction of bycatch, but the method cannot favor those who pinhook already as they represent another scourge on the fish population. How many times have you seen guys with commercial 6-pack licenses keeping smaller fish because they can? Quite a few, I'm sure. We could go on for years about this one.
Mako,
I believe allowing recreational fishermen to sell their catch would be a mistake without considering the following:
- Who will teach them proper handling and storage techniques? Talk about botulism in the marketplace. We've all seen the pin hookers with blackfish and seabass beside their boat in little floating boxes. Who would want to eat that after it had been there for a week and who could stop it??
- Who would enforce the limitations currently imposed on the commercials regarding limits and such? You have perhaps 500 commercial trawlers vs 500,000 recreationals. This is a daunting task and you can't believe for a minute they are going to do the right thing.
- How do you stop the recreational fisherman after he has received violations? Take away his boat and poles?
I am all for the reduction of bycatch, but the method cannot favor those who pinhook already as they represent another scourge on the fish population. How many times have you seen guys with commercial 6-pack licenses keeping smaller fish because they can? Quite a few, I'm sure. We could go on for years about this one.
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efisherman, I am not for one minute suggesting that tomorrow every Tom, Dick, & Harry be permitted to sell whatever they catch. I do not profess to be an expert on the subject, but to address your points, here on some suggestions, just shooting from the hip.
1. Before anyone could sell any fish they would have to get a license, for a fee, and part of this process would involve taking a short course, followed by a test on the proper care and handling of fish. This is not rocket science. In fact, I do not believe that the commericial guys have to do any such thing. Fish would be sold to a broker, they already exist, and if the broker didn't like the way the fish looked, he doesn't buy. That's the way it works now.
2. Quota enforcement already exists, brokers that buy fish, sell fish, there is a paper trail. Landings that are sold to brokers get reported.
3. Fine people for violations.
1. Before anyone could sell any fish they would have to get a license, for a fee, and part of this process would involve taking a short course, followed by a test on the proper care and handling of fish. This is not rocket science. In fact, I do not believe that the commericial guys have to do any such thing. Fish would be sold to a broker, they already exist, and if the broker didn't like the way the fish looked, he doesn't buy. That's the way it works now.
2. Quota enforcement already exists, brokers that buy fish, sell fish, there is a paper trail. Landings that are sold to brokers get reported.
3. Fine people for violations.
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Matt,
I don't think it is a good idea to allow recreational fisherman to sell their catch either. There are too many commercial guys right now as it is. We don't need to add to the population. And, recreational fisherman who get permits to sell fish would then be commercial fisherman.
One reason the government caters to the commercial interests is because no matter how much they fight amongst themselves, when it comes to politics they come together to stand as one. Also, the government created the problem of too many commercial fisherman back in the seventies when they banned the foriegn fleets and subsidized loans for the domestic fleet to grow to what it once was and is now dwindling to. Back then it seem like the seas couldn't be emptied, and they knew little about regulating the stocks.
I don't like the commercial guys that are doing things illegally, or the illegal recreational guys for that matter, but I cannot blame the commercial guys operating withing the guidelines of the law. It is unfair to the legal commercial fisherman in both instances. Change the laws if there are problems, but with the amount of illegal activity out there, who know if that would make a difference.
Right now, by catch is a necessary evil that is factored into the quotas for commercial guys. The way to keep the quota in check is to limit the amount of commercial fisherman by limiting permits. That's why it is almost impossible to get one now. The government has realized it's mistake, and instead of buying out the comm's, it will allow them to keep fishing until they retire and another permit will be gone.
I would like to see some more gear restrictions and developments that would allow more control over the species caught. Nets, pots, and longlines are so indiscrimenant, pin hooking seems like the best way to go. Go back to hand lining cod with black tar cord and tog fishing with rod and reel for example.
Chris
I'm sorry I won't be able to respond to this topic for the next few days. Going hunting for a week.
I don't think it is a good idea to allow recreational fisherman to sell their catch either. There are too many commercial guys right now as it is. We don't need to add to the population. And, recreational fisherman who get permits to sell fish would then be commercial fisherman.
One reason the government caters to the commercial interests is because no matter how much they fight amongst themselves, when it comes to politics they come together to stand as one. Also, the government created the problem of too many commercial fisherman back in the seventies when they banned the foriegn fleets and subsidized loans for the domestic fleet to grow to what it once was and is now dwindling to. Back then it seem like the seas couldn't be emptied, and they knew little about regulating the stocks.
I don't like the commercial guys that are doing things illegally, or the illegal recreational guys for that matter, but I cannot blame the commercial guys operating withing the guidelines of the law. It is unfair to the legal commercial fisherman in both instances. Change the laws if there are problems, but with the amount of illegal activity out there, who know if that would make a difference.
Right now, by catch is a necessary evil that is factored into the quotas for commercial guys. The way to keep the quota in check is to limit the amount of commercial fisherman by limiting permits. That's why it is almost impossible to get one now. The government has realized it's mistake, and instead of buying out the comm's, it will allow them to keep fishing until they retire and another permit will be gone.
I would like to see some more gear restrictions and developments that would allow more control over the species caught. Nets, pots, and longlines are so indiscrimenant, pin hooking seems like the best way to go. Go back to hand lining cod with black tar cord and tog fishing with rod and reel for example.
Chris
I'm sorry I won't be able to respond to this topic for the next few days. Going hunting for a week.
Ok, my .02 cents...
There is only one way to reduce bycatch, that is make the commercials keep their bycatch. Anything and everything they catch is included in their quota for the day. Don't catch enough of the target species, too bad, you're done for the day. Catch a non-target species that can't be sold, too bad have to keep it, can't sell it, gotta donate it.
Catch something too small, too bad try to sell get pennies for it...
sounds ridiculous, but its really not. Its the kind of regulation that says if you kill it, you keep it, even if its not profitable...
What do these kind of restrictions do... they force the commercial to use more efficient means to catch fish, bigger mesh size, shorter drags, etc.
How do you enorce it, Stricter regulations, more enforcement at the docks, stricter penalties like loss of license...
Lets face it if something isn't done soon, nothing will be left in the future.
There is only one way to reduce bycatch, that is make the commercials keep their bycatch. Anything and everything they catch is included in their quota for the day. Don't catch enough of the target species, too bad, you're done for the day. Catch a non-target species that can't be sold, too bad have to keep it, can't sell it, gotta donate it.
Catch something too small, too bad try to sell get pennies for it...
sounds ridiculous, but its really not. Its the kind of regulation that says if you kill it, you keep it, even if its not profitable...
What do these kind of restrictions do... they force the commercial to use more efficient means to catch fish, bigger mesh size, shorter drags, etc.
How do you enorce it, Stricter regulations, more enforcement at the docks, stricter penalties like loss of license...
Lets face it if something isn't done soon, nothing will be left in the future.
Good idea!
When they reach their quota in pounds of TOTAL catch for the day, they're done. It would be about a week before we were purchasing imported fish from the devils overseas. None of them could live on the take that has somehow been allotted them by neptune himself, er.. I mean the government. They depleted the oceans themselves and somehow it's subsidized?
Imagine if you will a hunter in a tree stand during deer season with a fully auto 50mm and about 3000000 rounds. He spots a 12-point buck at the watering hole and manages to kill 60 animals in twelve seconds during the barrage of fire he covers the perimeter in.. in the process, the moose next to the deer crushes the deer and the gator that was about to bite it. There you have the modern day equivalent of trawling..
How the **** did this come to be?
When they reach their quota in pounds of TOTAL catch for the day, they're done. It would be about a week before we were purchasing imported fish from the devils overseas. None of them could live on the take that has somehow been allotted them by neptune himself, er.. I mean the government. They depleted the oceans themselves and somehow it's subsidized?
Imagine if you will a hunter in a tree stand during deer season with a fully auto 50mm and about 3000000 rounds. He spots a 12-point buck at the watering hole and manages to kill 60 animals in twelve seconds during the barrage of fire he covers the perimeter in.. in the process, the moose next to the deer crushes the deer and the gator that was about to bite it. There you have the modern day equivalent of trawling..
How the **** did this come to be?
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This idea of "sportsman" be allowed to sell their catch if they like is not reinventing the wheel, it was done it the past, and is still being done, it works. I am only suggesting that perhaps the time has come to revisit this, and possibily renew and expand the program.
I have nothing against what the commericial guys are doing, provided they operate within the law like everybody else should. I know the bycatch is figured into the quotas, but still doesn't make it right. If there is a better way to catch the fish, meaning reduce bycatch, why not do it?
Allowing "sportsman" to sell their catch is not going to put all commericial fisherman out of business. It will probably put some out of business yes, but it will put others into business, supply and demand. What it will do is help reduce bycatch and other necessary evils that are associated with dragging 5,000 lbs of gear all over the bottom of the ocean, esp. in the inshore water areas.
You can't change the entire industry overnight, you chip away at things, little by little. Yes, the commericials need better gear that is less indiscrimnate and we are making much progress in that direction. T.E.D.'s in the Gulf Shrimp Fishery have gone a long way in that direction as an example, but, still have what I would consider a very high bycatch %. I know guys from Alabama that go shrimping at night, "sportsman", they get bushels of shrimp, ZERO bycatch, but like here, they are not allowed to sell them.
I have always believed that this is a free country, and if you wanted to go into business, if you thought you invented the better mousetrap, if you thought you could do it better then the next guy and make money, be it full time, or part time, you could. Free enterprise, I guess it doesn't apply to fishing.
I have nothing against what the commericial guys are doing, provided they operate within the law like everybody else should. I know the bycatch is figured into the quotas, but still doesn't make it right. If there is a better way to catch the fish, meaning reduce bycatch, why not do it?
Allowing "sportsman" to sell their catch is not going to put all commericial fisherman out of business. It will probably put some out of business yes, but it will put others into business, supply and demand. What it will do is help reduce bycatch and other necessary evils that are associated with dragging 5,000 lbs of gear all over the bottom of the ocean, esp. in the inshore water areas.
You can't change the entire industry overnight, you chip away at things, little by little. Yes, the commericials need better gear that is less indiscrimnate and we are making much progress in that direction. T.E.D.'s in the Gulf Shrimp Fishery have gone a long way in that direction as an example, but, still have what I would consider a very high bycatch %. I know guys from Alabama that go shrimping at night, "sportsman", they get bushels of shrimp, ZERO bycatch, but like here, they are not allowed to sell them.
I have always believed that this is a free country, and if you wanted to go into business, if you thought you invented the better mousetrap, if you thought you could do it better then the next guy and make money, be it full time, or part time, you could. Free enterprise, I guess it doesn't apply to fishing.
Runoff
Hi Runoff,
I also like your idea. I think in my mind I had a similar if not the same idea but was unable to verbalize it. Good Job! I wonder if that will ever be able to pass. All it will take is some statistics to be performed on the amount of pounds one of these boats are allowed to keep of their target fish...and all other fish they are likely to bycatch.
Followed by a long drawn out calculation w/ lots of variables about the likelyhood of the kinds of fish are in a bycatch and one will be able to deduce the amount of poundage a vessel will be able to keep w/o going over a quota for one speciffic fish. It would end up as something like "X" in pounds + or - some standard deviation of the mean.
Sounds complicated, but it's not really. I am wonder if the people making these decisions ever tried an idea like yours.
I may try and work on this to see what I can come up with numberwise.
Can anyone post for me or direct me to where I can find legitmate quotas by species?
In order for me to try and do it I need to keep it simple. One type of fishing (ie: dragers right outside the inlets or longliners as they are each targeting and bycatching different fish stocks).
Hi Runoff,
I also like your idea. I think in my mind I had a similar if not the same idea but was unable to verbalize it. Good Job! I wonder if that will ever be able to pass. All it will take is some statistics to be performed on the amount of pounds one of these boats are allowed to keep of their target fish...and all other fish they are likely to bycatch.
Followed by a long drawn out calculation w/ lots of variables about the likelyhood of the kinds of fish are in a bycatch and one will be able to deduce the amount of poundage a vessel will be able to keep w/o going over a quota for one speciffic fish. It would end up as something like "X" in pounds + or - some standard deviation of the mean.
Sounds complicated, but it's not really. I am wonder if the people making these decisions ever tried an idea like yours.
I may try and work on this to see what I can come up with numberwise.
Can anyone post for me or direct me to where I can find legitmate quotas by species?
In order for me to try and do it I need to keep it simple. One type of fishing (ie: dragers right outside the inlets or longliners as they are each targeting and bycatching different fish stocks).
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