[togmaster]

Well I see many guys with ants in their pants on the wait for tog season.
So I decide to start this thread for those needing info or reports of what?s happening down at the docks this season. Right now the water is a bit warmer than expected and smaller tog are on the chew as of this past week. I was out today myself with the same results. For those of you ready to hang me for fishing out of season it was a commercial trip which is open in Ny so it is legal for 25 fish per day.

With the thinning Reg count I love to see the effect it has on the tog this season.
Hopefully many will post their results and observations this season to possibly get a true look at the Regulation cuts and its affect overall

Best of luck on the Bottom
Go catch them up


This post edited by togmaster 08:30 PM 10/25/2008

 

[gebby]

hey mike,

what effect do you honestly think the 60% reduction on rec bag limits will have on the inshore, early season shallow reef fishing? on the one hand, i look at it as we weekend warriors are kind of 'high grading' ourselves into keeping bigger (and older, breeding) fish. to me, never a good thing. on the other hand, it seems that maybe we should have some better quality fish (mid sized keepers), and more of them later in the season, like into late november, early december. when ya usually have to move deeper to see any quality at all.

what say you?

 

[togmaster]

the results

gebby wrote:
hey mike,

what effect do you honestly think the 60% reduction on rec bag limits will have on the inshore, early season shallow reef fishing? on the one hand, i look at it as we weekend warriors are kind of 'high grading' ourselves into keeping bigger (and older, breeding) fish. to me, never a good thing. on the other hand, it seems that maybe we should have some better quality fish (mid sized keepers), and more of them later in the season, like into late november, early december. when ya usually have to move deeper to see any quality at all.

what say you?

Hi Gebby,
As far as a answer I think time will tell.
The flucuation from season to season will make it difficult to prove any data. The peak is on the down side in my eyes. The enforcement has also shown more presence as well. So add that to the equation.

Thats my idea behind this topic trying to pinpoint the results from the docks.

Only time will tell

 

[MisterX]

This years closure at the end of Dec into Jan makes no sense to me. I would have rather seen the season closed for much of October than December into Jan.

IMHO, A Nov 1st thru Feb 15th season would have made more sense.

 

[togmaster]

why those months

MisterX wrote:
This years closure at the end of Dec into Jan makes no sense to me. I would have rather seen the season closed for much of October than December into Jan.

IMHO, A Nov 1st thru Feb 15th season would have made more sense.

MisterX I can only assume this is very close to the peak demand for tog. So by closing it for the Recs the comm guy will be able to get a crack at them to try and help them out.

Honestly I think this was set by the 3 stooges looking to be greedy!

I love to hear the truth behind that master plan

The big thing with Tog is we must remember they are slow growers!

Plus we now see our bottom being destroyed again in the NY bight by the southern scallopers.
These guys have been killing tons of natural bottom around debs jones and FI right now. I have seen many of them hung in the reefs and wrecks right out side the inlets.
I was talking with RichieK and he states that most of all the natural bottom that has been wiped out was due to the drag and dredges in the area.

I cannot believe NY would farm out our waters to a diffeent state.
They claim we have to protect of fish and regulated thigns better then that allow these boats to destroy our bottom.

Anyone notice around Debs and Jones the sudden disappperance of Seabass?
Yes there are a few on the reefs but the open rocks have been not doing well at all.

Fishing to the west off Rockaway has seen the norm, for that area is not being worked by these monsters.

I think some one should take a underwater camera and take a video of untouched bottm, Then have one of these boats drag through and see the after math

Someone needs these Southern boys to go home!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It may be too late

 

[CaptPaul]

When you go fishing, you're the only factor that knows what the bag limit is. The fish don't know, the weather doesn't know. The only thing that considers the bag limit is you. So, if you are able to cull, say, four fish over seven pounds to make your limit of four, what makes others beleive that if the bag limit were ten, you would not have those four fish over seven pounds, w/ up to six additional fishes? Are you saying that if you were allowed ten, you wouldn't keep any bigger fish, or because you are only allowed four, you will target only larger fish to make the trip worthwhile?

As for the winter closure, that was pretty simple when you look at the fatcs. First, there is no landings data for much of that period. So, by the closure, they are eliminating a big question mark in the formula, because we all know that there is a significant amount of landings during that period which do not go into the equation. Also, that time period happens to have the smallest geographical area of production. That is, the fewest ports are able to take advantage of the fishery at that time. To have an earlier seasonal closure, would effect more fishermen and businesses, and probably conserve an equal amount, or less, fishes. Thirdly, the period and area has become too well-known for the black-market live fish market that thrives there. This alone, w/ the years of lawlessness and out-in-the-open rec/comm mixing of trips, should take any mystery out of why this time period was chosen for the reduction by closure. Many honest, avid fishermen will suffer because of this, but due to ineffective enforcement and baltant disregard for the regs. Maybe a measure of self-policing, whistle-blowing, or simply keeping things quiet, might have avoided this closure. However, not only is it too late to avoid, but it will still go on, and there will be highly-publicized enforcement events, which will only serve to prove the value of the closure, and perpetuate it.

I personally will miss being able to keep the ten or thirty tog we will be catching on our winter wreck trips, but I was unable to argue against the monster that was presented.

Paul

 

[Lattitudechange]

This may be thin but here's another thought on the mid season closure. There are plenty of weekend recs like myself that would leave our boats in the water till well into February. Closing the season in December will most likely eliminate a lot of us rec boats fishing the last week of January and February. By Decembers end, boats will be pulled and laid up for the winter, which means less a few less fisherman in February.

 

[Savvy18]

CaptPaul & Lat make great points. The guys that don't follow the rules will still NOT follow the rules and all us dopey "conservation dreamers" will pull out our boats and leave the ocean to the TOG PIRATES!!

It will never end as long as the black fish has a dollar sign hanging over it's head. Stop the people that buy these fish, you eliminate the profits of the guys that go through considerable "pains" to bring them the product.

But what do I know. I'm just a DREAMER!

 

[NYBightEditor]

Savvy wrote:
Stop the people that buy these fish, you eliminate the profits of the guys that go through considerable "pains" to bring them the product.
Exactly. ECOs face an almost impossible task, trying to grab these guys out on the water. Someone once posted that "Two guys in a Crown Vic could catch more poachers in one day, than twenty guys in a week on the water." I couldn't agree more.

You would think that the fines to fish stores and restaurants is a potential windfall for the city, but I suppose they are afraid that the business will move elsewhere. If that is the case, it makes the city an accomplice in the black market - I'm getting a headache

 

[togmaster]

Stronger presence

Well Rome was not built in a day. But we have seen much more busts on the Topic recently. I am sure many have thought twice about breaking the rules due to the increase in violations.

But think about how many boats and anglers there are to the number of Eco's.The only chance they have to stop it is to close it down on the sale end from Comm. as well.

At this point the 25 fish per day cannot pay the bills it is only an added figure to the other fish they need to supplment there income.

A few Comm. guys are the ones that exposed the Tog market.
Was this a good idea for them?

In my opinion it will lead to the comm. being shut down as well.
I see the tog becoming less and less every season.
Then again we had a few bad years and then 3 years ago it was amazing.

So is it a cycle?
Is it other factors like water temps salinity?

Thats something only time will tell.

I can say with the slow growing rate of the tog this is difficult to asses.

Think about what happened with Cod and that fish grows a lot faster then a tog.
Hopefully a happy solution will be found
There needs ot be much more hands on science to truly make a ASSumption

 

[Savvy18]

Mike, as you said, the numbers are not in favor of the "good guys" on this topic. No way can we expect that the powers that be can accomplish this task from the water alone. That is not going to happen. The fight has to be taken to the streets. We KNOW where the targets are (and they DON'T move around!).....NOW, who has the balls to go and do what needs to be done?

Did I just sound like Sean Connery in The Untouchables?


This post edited by Savvy18 10:30 PM 09/07/2008

 

[Meirowitz]

Paul, while I agree that the heretofore ineffective enforcement and blatant disregard for the regulations might have avoided closures had enforcement been more "effective," I would hope that it is not too late to avoid a continuance of that policy (or, perhaps, a more severe policy resulting in the complete shut-down of the tog fishery). We need more ?highly publicized enforcement events.? We need more ?self-policing.? We need more ?whistle blowing.? Eventually, these approaches will pay off.

I would like to see some highly publicized follow-up on the recent indictments involving commercialization violations. What has happened to these recent indictments? Were they pled out? I?d like to see them tried rather than pled out. If you want to see some results, let?s see some of these characters faced with a ?D? felony conviction, heavy fines, and the confiscation of property.

Savvy, I think you have to attack the problem at all levels. While it is certainly easier to catch the wholesaler or restaurant owner who is violating the regs, that doesn?t mean the distributors and poachers should go untarnished. The attack should be at all levels, and we should expect the wholesalers and the restaurant owners to give up the names of the distributors and poachers that supply them. If they won?t cooperate, that should be taken into consideration when meting out the punishment to those wholesalers and restaurant owners.

NY Bight Editor, do you seriously believe that the City is concerned that the prosecution of violators will cause those violators to take their business elsewhere? I don?t think that is likely, but a few less violators in the City surely won?t be missed. Let them move to New Jersey! I think the real problems are the apathy of the court system when dealing with a ?fish? violation, and the lack of proper staffing, funding or motivation to prosecute these violations through the trial stage. Let?s see less plea bargaining and more high profile convictions if you want results! If the DEC doesn't have the staff to fully prosecute these cases, let the DEC hire outside counsel to take some of these violators to trial!

Togmaster, I think you place too much emphasis on the lack of sufficient DEC presence to capture illegal poachers. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Let the easier targets ? the illegal wholesalers and restaurant owners ? give them up. When some of these characters are looking at some prison time, they?ll think twice about withholding evidence.

Enough of my rant. Time to walk the dog!


This post edited by Meirowitz 06:43 AM 09/08/2008

 

[gebby]

Are you saying that if you were allowed ten, you wouldn't keep any bigger fish, or because you are only allowed four, you will target only larger fish to make the trip worthwhile?


paul,

well as for me, i couldnt catch 4 fish over seven pounds in one day in a fish market. but yes what im trying to say is yes, we might throw back the first few 3, 4, 5 pound fish looking for big freddy. im not sure i will mind you, but i could see that happening.

 

[togmaster]

Jail Time for TOG?

Meirowitz wrote:

Togmaster, I think you place too much emphasis on the lack of sufficient DEC presence to capture illegal poachers. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Let the easier targets ? the illegal wholesalers and restaurant owners ? give them up. When some of these characters are looking at some prison time, they?ll think twice about withholding evidence.

Enough of my rant. Time to walk the dog!

Dick it?s not the lack. It is the equation of Dec man power to the operations of activity in place.
Also Dick you refer to jail time for their crimes.
In all honesty selling fish is not a crime to be jailed for. Fine them but to throw violators in jail for a small crime is useless and would cost our state more money than it?s worth.

Dick Drugs are a greater crime in the state and you still can find whatever you want almost any place in this state.
So if a true Crime of drug sales cannot be contained what makes you think they can control the black market of tog.
When a drug dealer is caught they always try to get the top gun by others rolling over. In that sense I am sure this can happen but for the DEC to invest the time and money over fish is not going to be easy on their part.

There are a lot more important things to be had in our country today then our fish

 

[reelfisher]

Paul gave a very good recap as to why the DEC chose to shut down the fishery for the 2 weeks in wave 1. In fact, all of the options presented to the MRAC included this closure so we didn't have a choice there. What I didn't see anyone cover in this thread (it was covered back when the regs were announced) was the reason for starting the season on October 1st as opposed to November 1st or some other date. In coming up with the open dates, there was a case made by one of the councilors that opening the fishery later would significantly affect shore fishermen and small boat bay fishermens' ability to participate in the fishery which was deemed to be unacceptable.

 

[Meirowitz]

Mike, I think you're missing the point. Certain commercialization violations are "D" felonies. The penalities for "D" felonies, I believe, encompass incarceration, as well as substantial fines and confiscation of property. You may feel that incarceration is inappropriate for a commercialization violation and that the remedy should merely be a fine, but the statute is in place and provides for more.

I suppose someone guilty of tax evasion, or some form of white collar crime, would argue, as you do, that these are relatively harmless infractions that do not equate with the harm done by, say, drug dealing, but that argument is beside the point. It is irrelevant. It is equally irrelevant to argue that the crime is difficult to enforce because it has become a part of our culture and, therefore, it should not be prosecuted.

We are dealing here with guys who are indicted for commercialization offenses. There has already been a finding of sufficient cause to go to trial on the issue. My problem is allowing some of these guys to plead out for a nominal fine because it is simply more convenient to allow these guys to take a plea. If all they get is a slap on the wrist in the form of a minor fine, more than likely they will be back at it.

I wonder how many guys who are illegally poaching are doing it because they argue, as you do, that it is a harmless violation that should not be punished. To accept that argument is to accept the fact that there is nothing that can or should be done to correct the problem. Is that your objective? To ignore the problem because "it's only a fish" and "no one is getting hurt?" I hope not, because if you are, you might as well kiss this fishery, and others, goodbye.

 

[togmaster]

my point

Dick you went way over my point and jumped to something way off path

I only stated that this is a difficult thing to stop.
I used drugs as a example of why it would be difficult to stop.
I never stated any of the things you posted.
I just gave the examples and reason behind your statement from the start.

Dick law is your business. You know better than I

But forget about the defense attorney speech you just posted.
I am only referring to examples and reason
Your post makes it like we should hang these people
I am not saying to let them walk. But in reality as you said yourself they are not being jailed and paying the fine they are charged with.

Please don't jump to conclusions for myself if you read it slowly I was speaking from what I see.
Do I want to protect the Tog
Of course
Do you think the average Joe is going to poach these days?
Well think again for it truly is not a money making ordeal as many think it is.
I fish Comm. for tog and no one is making money if that?s the only species they have to bank on.
They?re lucky if they can pay their expense for the day if that

If you figure what it cost for permit, fuel, bait, time, insurance and upkeep it is like 4 dollars a mile right now for a comm boat owner on the average 25 to 35 foot vessel.
Do the math 25 fish if that per day and the normal price average of 3 to 4 a lb. If you do a box of fish per day your doing great in today?s times. Not the 2 or 3 weeks of the peak that most think is the normal price of 9 to 10 dollars a lb. And you'll see breaking even is hard enough on its own just fishing for tog

Again don?t run the train I am on off the tracks

I thought I made my point clear but if I did not then I apologize
I was just trying to put the topic in a perspective and maybe my point was taken in the wrong way
But I believe we have trouble with our tog fishery and want to help them stay around for a long time.
Tog is my true love of fishing and I think you know that well enough.

 

[Meirowitz]

"But forget about the defense attorney speech you just posted."

Actually, I was taking the prosecutor's position. You, I think, are making the defense attorney's summation.

Mike, I have no doubt that you care about this fishery more than almost any of us and it's good to see this aired from different perspectives. We have very different view points.

BTW, I really don't want to "hang" them (the poachers) ... just beat up on them so they have more respect for the severity of the situation!

 

[Savvy18]

First, I would like to add that what Dick said about allowing the poachers to "plead out" is happening in our courts. Trust me on that one. I see it first hand EVERY day!

AND, he also makes a point when he says that "initially" these offenses many times are IN FACT felonies by the ECL (Environmental Conservation Laws). I have seen many "familiar" names and faces (some of them WE ALL KNOW) in my courthouse with their fancy attorneys huddled in corners bargaining with ADA's for minimal fines and punishment of what any fisherman would consider a crime! However, the State of NY does not consider "fish" offenses crimes and so, they are prosecuted as some BS case that needs to go away to clear our VERY busy court calendars for "REAL" offenders!!! Particularly, violent offenders.

I cannot argue with that. We need to get our priorities straight! BUT, we definitley need to explore new avenues of enforcement for blatant violations of the ECL. Otherwise, what are we going to become? A state that turns the other cheek at the expense of an entire species of fish? Will it end with tautog or move on to striped bass? Flounder? Fluke?

I would be in complete favor of a saltwater license if the funds went DIRECTLY to the enforcement of state fishery laws and comprehensive research! NOT into some fat cats pockets!!!



This post edited by Savvy18 08:58 PM 09/08/2008

 

[togmaster]

the way it is

All I can say is Savy said it the way it is.
That was my point on the matter.The description of the court room is the reality of it all.
In all honesty as much as I like to see the Tog protected there are more impotant things on the States plate for now.

You will contiune to see more busts as suspected.
But in all honesty you'll never see it end.

As far as the saltwtaer lic.
Savy its here already no hiding from it

The registry will be here in 09
Where the money goes.
Well thats almost like the poachers pleding a case