[619627]

At this time of the year, i always go down and buy my fish at my local fish market, Henrys on 18th ave in Brooklyn. I was looking around at his large display and saw that JUMBO SCUP were listed at 99 cents a pound!!!!! Right next to the scup, their were some pencil size whiting going for $1.39. Now i have been around around a while, and i just had to ask Tony the manager, whats going on. He said that all the draggers are just bringing incredible catches of scup in from the canyon, causing the scup market to 'collapse' in plain english. Now if they were selling scup for 99 cents at the retail level, then what did they pay the fishermen?

Well it turns out that you can goto:

http://www.st.nmfs.gov/market_news/doc21.txt

And get the prices everyday from the Fulton Market for the wholesale price. As you can see, these fish are most likely from the New Jersey Cape May fleet and returned roughly 50 cents to the fishermen. Now, with NMFS putting the screws to the recreational fishermen by cutting this groups quota, does it make sense to allow one small group, aka the offshore dragger fleet, to catch some much that the price of these fish plunge below that of a 8inch whiting?

I for one, say this is the nonsense that is going on with the NMFS, not properly regulating the fisheries. Scup stocks over the last 3 years have rebounded to levels we have not seen in many years...From Montauk to Sheepshead Bay, scup catches have been outstanding over the last few years. But now we see so many fish being brought into a 'soft' fish market, and the fish, are being sold at prices that i have not seen in memory.

The question i ask, is the resource, scup, being properly regulated, when this happens on the retail level? And if you feel that low prices are good for the consumer, how about the fishermen, who gets a return that is below what they normal would get? Should the commercial quota be cut back, to firm up the market price (in effect lessening the amount of fish that are brought into market)? I like to hear what you think.........

EC NEWELL MAN*

 

[Capt.XXX]

National Fisherman

Just this past summer there was an article in the National Fisherman, basically saying the same thing about the Scup market. Here is the NMFS mis-managing again.
NMFS = Nothing Makes _ucking Sense!

 

[620427]

"and returned roughly 50 cents to the fishermen. "

its actually much less than that!

the prices quoted on the NMFS site are the SELLING price at the market.
NOT what gets returned to the fisherman.

"PRICES shown (SELLING AT FULTON not RETURNING TO SHIPPER)"

so lets look at the scup.
selling price is 45 to 50 cents at the market.
fish dealer at fulton makes 20-30%, so that reduces it to about 30-35 cents that the dealer pays the fisherman for the fish. from that the fisherman pays for the carton, ice and shipping to market which costs about 10-12 cents per pound,
leaving the fisherman with a net return of 20-25 cents per pound at best.

i agree with your statements,
something must be done
because what is being done now makes no sense.

 

[619627]

Megalodon...thats absolutely correct...that price is the price at which fish are roughly sold at...usually higher when the market opens, and dropping as the night goes on. This is a average price for the whole market, with some fish houses paying higher then others. But back to the fishermen, just think that after expenses, captains cut and crew shares, thats not much of a return per pound. I would say that 30-35 cents is about right as far as the boats return.

I have to check on what the trip limit is on scup, but this is the same NMFS that wants to squeeze the recreational community on their 50 fish a man bag limit!

Capt.XXX, your right, does NMFS want conservation, or is it just total mismanagement where so many fish have to be brought in for a trip to make money?

EC NEWELL MAN*

 

[MakoMike]

EC,
Based on my experience I'd say the fishermen are only getting 20-25 cents a pound, but its not NMFS' fault. They set the scup quotas by quarter and I'll wager that this quarter's scup quota is almost filled. Its the fisherman that have collapsed the market. Market price for fish is a supply/demand thing and the boats have over supplied the market. Once they've filled the quota the price will skyrocket. Anyone fishing for scup right now is just a p*ss poor businessman, but you can't expect NMFS to make good businessmen out of bad.

 

[Captneilf]

Hi all,

I was thinking exactly what MakoMike said.

It would seem that these comms are killing themselves. The weather and seas they are working in must be brutal. I can never understand why they don't get together and set up a sailing schedule, bring in enough each day to supply the basic demand and keep the price up. I would like to think they would make the same pay but work much less.

Is there a mentality out there that says I'm going to take everything I can get regardless to make sure the next guy doesn't get his?

Farming vs Fishing----I always come back to working a garden or farm. Much planning, effort, care and money is invested before the harvest. We as fishermen, recs and comms, just go out and take what we find and or want.

So you say, well there are the expenses of equipment etc. A farmer has similiar expenses for equip, fertilizer, seed etc.

No I am not a farmer. Maybe a senile side of me just coming out. Shudda slept later! Sniffing too much epoxy!

But the Winter Bash rod, "son of white chin", is finished.

 

[Capt.XXX]

NMFS destroyed the Scup market

It's all NMFS's fault in this case (when isn't it their fault). NMFS sets the quotas on the scup and there are SO MANY fish that the market gets flooded within the first few days -- then the quota is shut down for a few months and there are NO FISH in the market! The price plummets, and then there are no more fish to buy!, In actuality the Scup market has been soft because of this feast to famine supply of Scup caused my the briliant NMFS fisheries managers. Fish buyers now really don't want to handle Scup because of this difficulty, so there is a resistance there for the price to go up also. Please don't think that NMFS is sided towards commercials -- they aren't sided at all. They just haven't go a clue! Here is a very good example of what the commercial fisherman has to deal with in order to provide for their families. Nobody is a millionaire in commercial fishing -- maybe just "Joe Millionaires" LOL! Anyway, the point is you can't bash the commecials they are in the same boat as us hobbiests!

There should be enough Scup to produce a firm market as well as maintaining a stable Scup resource. The Scup Fishery Management should be a NO BRAINER so I pose this question: WHY DID NMFS _UCK IT UP?

 

[620427]

makomike

"Market price for fish is a supply/demand thing and the boats have over supplied the market. "

maybe the NMFS should reduce the quota,
this way the SUPPLY would decrease,
which would match the DECREASE in the demand for the porgy.
part of the reason for the decline in the porgy prices is that several years ago when the porgies were tough to find, many large buyers switched to spot and croaker, the porgy market never rebounded from that and the prices have declined due to lower consumer demand.
there are other factors as well that have reduced the value of much of our local fish.

"Anyone fishing for scup right now is just a p*ss poor businessman"

so those piss poor commercial fisherman should wait till the quota is filled and then go fishing or should they just remained tied at the dock ?
what would you do MAKOMIKE if you owned a commercial dragger in this situation.
please explain how you would handle this situation as a better fishing businessman ???

"but you can't expect NMFS to make good businessmen out of bad."

you got to be kidding me with this one,
if there has been one agency responsible for the total mismangement of the fishery and the collapse of the business of fishing in this country it is the NMFS.
NMFS sets the rules, those rules have decimated the fish, fishery and the business of fishing, and you blame this on the fisherman ?
yes the fisherman did the actual catching, but the NMFS and the other regulatory agencies sets the quotas, provides the loans for boats and subsidizes the industry as a whole.
and you reference the NMFS as they know what they are doing ?????

they are the most clueless of the whole bunch when it comes to business and or management of anything.

 

[616787]

We must show the ones in authority that we are aware of these events. It offends us.....if it doesn't offend them, at least we are showing them that we are paying attention, and supporting our right for a fair share.

Would it be most effective to write to some of the same people that were mentioned in the "New Striper Laws" thread in the General Fishing Forum, that STEVEBYRNE provided? Or are there more effective people to aim our inquiries at?

 

[620427]

Farming vs Fishing

capt niel you make some good points,
but i would like to point out the major difference between the two.

as you stated:
"Much planning, effort, care and money is invested before the harvest. We as fishermen, recs and comms, just go out and take what we find and or want.
So you say, well there are the expenses of equipment etc.
A farmer has similiar expenses for equip, fertilizer, seed etc. "

the farmer has expenses for the equipment which is similar to the expense the fisherman have for a boat and the fishing gear.

the farmer needs water, that is the same as the need for bait for the fisherman.
this is where the similarities between the two end.

the farmer INVESTS in SEED AND FERTILIZER to IMPROVE his harvest.

the commercial fisherman MAKES NO SUCH INVESTMENT IN THE OCEAN EVER !

commercial fisherman do not invest a dime DIRECTLY into the improvement of the ocean (fertilzer) or the fishery (seed). that is the main and most important difference between the two.
the FARMER will replenish the "energy/life" of the field he grows in with fertilizer or compost, he improves his enviorment so he can harvest the following season.
fisherman do NONE of this, and in actuality the fisherman destroys his "field" with the gear used everytime he goes out to harvest.

the same could be said about the recreational fisherman as well,
we do not spend any money to DIRECTLY benefit the "garden" in which we pick our fruits from.

the ocean is like a sugar bowl,
how many scoops of sugar can you remove before it has to be filled back up ?
we got a serious sweet tooth and the sugar cannot be produced fast enough to keep up with the sugar being taken from the bowl.

 

[Captneilf]

Megalodon

Hi,

Thank you for expanding my thoughts as you did.

 

[MakoMike]

Megs,
The same thing happens everywhere where there are seasonal or time based quotas. Its happened in the gulf fishery for red snapper, the halibut fishery in Alaska, before the IFQs. Anytime there are time based quotas fisherman do the same thing, glut the market at the beginning of the season. That's not NMFS' fault. Reducting the quota won't help Breaking the quota up into smaller time periods won't help either. Some guys are always going to overload the market when the'res fish to be had.
Its no different that the hog farmers every one studied in economics 101. When prices are high they will increase production until the price falls below Their marginal costs of production. That's exactly what's happened to the scup fishermen. Every commercial captain knows that its imperative, if he's found fish, to be the first back at the docks, to get the highest price.
I'll agree that NMFS has done a horrible job of managing fish stocks, which in turn has hurt both commercial and recreational fishermen. But IMHO its not their kob to protect the fishermen from themselves.
what would I do different? after the first load of fish I would stay tied to the dock, or go fish squid, or something else that would likely earn me a buck or two. The answer lies with the fishermen, not NMFS. One way to "cure" it would be to ban fishing during the winter when the fish become easy targets, then the fish would trickle into market for the rest of the year. But then you would hear the howls from the draggers, who basically can only target these fish during the winter. There are a lot problems in the business of fishing that have been caused by NMFS, but this isn't one of them.

 

[LkyLindy]

Hmmmm

Megs-

quote:
commercial fisherman do not invest a dime DIRECTLY into the improvement of the ocean (fertilzer) or the fishery (seed). that is the main and most important difference between the two.
the FARMER will replenish the "energy/life" of the field he grows in with fertilizer or compost, he improves his enviorment so he can harvest the following season.
fisherman do NONE of this, and in actuality the fisherman destroys his "field" with the gear used everytime he goes out to harvest.


I can,t agree with you more on this statement

quote:
but you can't expect NMFS to make good businessmen out of bad."


Actually isn't that exactly what happened with that long line boat buyout from last year or so. old scows that would have been mothballed anyway were bought out at top dollar, with tax payer money?

 

[MakoMike]

Lindy,
Don't get me started on that buyout program They didn't make good businessmen out of bad they just made poor men a little less poor.

 

[skatemaster]

Just checked my neighborhood fish market. Porgies were $5/lb.

Anybody know what the average price is for Fulton Fish Market porgies?

Lastly the FFM price of ling is $0.25/lb. That seems low too.

 

[619627]

Skatemaster, just go onto the FULTON FISH MARKETS daily price board that i listed and you can see what the average price for fish are.

5 dollars a pound for Scup...what is that store, CITARELLAS? Cmon, i can get sword fillets for 5.99lb! You have to shop in my neighborhood!!!!!

I have to say their are so many good posts on this topic. What many do not realize is that this feast-famine' fishing mentality causes:

1)A great deal of waste when the quota is met, and fish that are now 'bycatch', are tossed back dead.
2)Not a proper use of the resource.
3)Leads to bottoming out of a soft wholesale fish market.
4)Yeilds poor returns for the fishermen.
5)Effects limits on the recreational sector.

CAPT.XXX, you right, NMFS is a mess, and needs to be straightened out.

EC NEWELL MAN*

 

[tunafever]

question

i was just looking at those prices, and being a young guy and clueless about certain things, i was wondering if any joe can go down to the market and buy fish. for example tuna for $3 a fish. i mean is that a mean or is that what they're selling for. i would appreciate any response. thanks
angelo

 

[MakoMike]

Tuna,
No you have to be in the fish business. and BTW that tuna is $3 a pound, by the fish so a 100 pound fish is going to cost you $300.
Guys,
There is an very interesting article about this very subject in the current issue of the national fisherman. I just saw it this AM. It seems that, as Megs correectly stated, that this isn't only the boom/bust scenario of fishermen flooding the market, but also, due to the relatively small quotas over the last several years a lot of the potential market had gone away.

 

[skatemaster]

I think that you can buy fish directly from some of the vendors but it is not the same experience as going to a fish store.

Fulton Fish: From Market to Kitchen
Shirley King 1 session(s)

Take a tour through one of the world's great fish markets-the Fulton Fish Market in lower Manhattan-with Shirley King, author of Fish: The Basics, then return to the school to cook. During the early-morning stroll you'll learn the history of the market and how to recognize various species and judge freshness. You'll also purchase fish to be used in a delicious fish menu. Back at the school, you'll prepare Braised Fish with Aromatics; Pan-Fried Salmon with Mango Sauce; Scallops Wrapped in Pancetta with White Wine Sabayon; Braised Monkfish with Bacon, Garlic, Tomato and Basil; and other specialties based on market availability. Classes will meet at the corner of South Street and Fulton Street.

 

[skatemaster]

There is an article on this in the National Fisherman. Summarizing.....

Prices $0.22/lb at the boat or $0.35/lb delivered to the wholesaler.

No, fishermen are not happy.

Quotas - 2003 is 2x 2002 and 4x 2001, ie. quotas are doubling every year, with the consequent effect on pricing.

But the biggest factor? - The consumer

When scup was in short supply, and prices were high, markets and consumers found other fish to eat. Now, we (in the general sense) don't want to buy scup anymore, so the price sucks. Give it a few years, to have a healthy supply of scup in the fish stores at good prices, to woo back the ethnic groups that traditionally bought scup, and prices should increase.

Scup futures anyone?