[MacSquid]

I've had a little trouble with this combo. When I apply a second coat of cp it dosn't want to adhere well to the first coat and when it dries it gets flakey. It does clean off with alcahol, But i'm wondering if any one else has had this problem and how to fix it?
You can see in the pic the crusty white coating. looks almost like dust.
Sorry for some reason the subject line didn't come up the combo is madeira and gudebrod cp

This post edited by MacSquid 06:43 AM 05/20/2008

 

[Rodwinder]

Squid, did you put this on any heavier than usual? i have seen hazing when too much is applied on black thread but this seems to be extreme

 

[Billy40]

How are you applying it? HEAVY coat, let dry, then another heavy coat? OR a heavy coat, wick of teh excess, then another heavy coat, wicking off the excess?

THis is the new 811, that is milky white, correct? Or the old lear/greyish/cloudy colored stuff?

In theory, you really only need 1 coat of CP. Tht is provided you apply it properly, heavy coat, wicking off the excess. I did 1 coat for a few years, with no major issues, a blotch here and there though, but not bad. After doing some testing, I did have to admit that 2 coats did give better results. The key is wicking off the excess, and making sure there is no foam, or bubbles from the CP on the thread before it dries.

Think about it - 1 coat of CP is designed to preent epoxy fom changing the color of the thread. So, teh second coat of CP, will do the same thing as teh epoxy - sit on top. THat second coat is kind of an insurance policy for any threads which didn't recieve enough CP the first coat, or that you flat out missed. The MAJORITY of that second coat will sit on top of the first coat, and will dry on top. Once the solvent in the CP evaporates, and the CP dries, teh solids will be left on top of the threads and are probably what you are seeing in your wrap.

 

[Rodwinder]

billy, i know you did a bunch of testing, IMO the new white 811 is the worst stuff you can use

 

[MacSquid]

Yes this is the new stuff. On the rod I just finished I used one heavy coat wicked up excess as described on another site. When I applied the finish I got significant blotching and alot of fisheyes. I havn't been useing madeira very long and am wondering if it has anything to do with the coating on the thread.This is my normal procedure Butt wrap, Underwraps,Thin coat of finish then install front grip and continue. I havn't had a problem in the past with other cp's but i think of those i've tried the gudebrod retains the original colors better.

 

[Billy40]

Rodwinder wrote:
billy, i know you did a bunch of testing, IMO the new white 811 is the worst stuff you can use

And in your imo you would be second correct, lol. Diamondite is worse, by a lot. U40 & FC are teh same product, and do give pretty good results. Where those 2 CP's fall short is on a shaded pattern where a lot of colors close in shade are used - those CP's make them all look the same color. But for normal CP use they are good.

 

[Rodwinder]

I use two coats of U40 Color lock, you should give this stuff a try.

As to the wrap i am not sure how to fix it, if you clean it up i think you will still have to apply another coat of cp, if you do that will you get the same results?

 

[Billy40]

MacSquid wrote:
Yes this is the new stuff.

CP Test Results

That link is the results from my personal test of a bunch of CP's (if anyone is wondering why FRed Halfhiemers isn't on the NERB Mailing list, now you know why, lol). I did 2 coats on teh 0 axis, and only 1 on teh 180, 2 coats was better than 1, this test is what opened my eyes to that fact.

From left to right, 811, Brilliance2, the bad batch of 811 new, teh new milky 811 which you are using now, bare thread, Minwax Polycryllic, U/40 or FC, and i'm not saying which brand, lol.

Any time you use a new product, you MUST test it. The first time I use 811 New funky batch, I didn't realize the forula had changed, and I did ruin a wrap, which pissed me off because it wasnt' on my rod, and I dont' cut squat off.

 

[MacSquid]

Rodwinder wrote:
I use two coats of U40 Color lock, you should give this stuff a try.

As to the wrap i am not sure how to fix it, if you clean it up i think you will still have to apply another coat of cp, if you do that will you get the same results?
Maybe I should clarify a little. The wrap in the pic is one that i did two coats on and got the crustys I cleaned that wrap with alcahol and coated with high build finish all is now ok.
I did a test and apon application of the second coat noticed it beaded up like water on wax.
I searched some of the regular sites and saw people advising only one coat as Billy described.
I figured one coat it is. Now the rod that is on my dryer is the one with the bigger problem (blotches and fisheyes)

I'm left with two choices keep it or not. I'm confident that I can fix the fisheyes but not the blotches.
Just hoping that hearing how others do it will help prevent future problems.

Thanks,
Kenny Mac

 

[Rodwinder]

if you applied the finish to the rod and now have fisheyes and blotches it is because there was not enought CP applied to the thread....the fisheyes are from the silicon in the thread and the blotches were caused also by not enough CP i don't see how you can save this at this point

This post edited by Rodwinder 01:06 PM 05/20/2008

 

[Billy40]

MacSquid wrote:
I searched some of the regular sites and saw people advising only one coat as Billy described.
I figured one coat it is. Now the rod that is on my dryer is the one with the bigger problem

Rule #1 - eff what anyone else says. If you find a method that works, stick with it. I'm not saying people are giving you good/bad advice, but when I say a flood coat and wick off - you might go out and pour 4oz of CP to flood the wrap, then get a sponge to wick off the excess. Unless you take teh advice with a grain of salt and take teh advice and practice until you see if you can get it to work - you will ALWAYS run into these problems.

Fisheyes, as RW stated were caused by not enough CP, as were teh blotches. If hte blotches are THAT BAD, which they usually are not - then your'e gonna have to cut it off. If the blotches are only really noticeable because you know they are there, then just leave them. I have several rods with a blotch here and there, I don't really care. I have cut others off which were.

 

[MacSquid]

Thanks guys

the final decision is that I will just keep the ugly rod for myself. It wasn't what was comissioned in the first place. I was able to get rid of the fisheyes by cleaning with alcahol and applying another coat of finish. I'll just pretend the rest was planned.lol Or I can just wrap a brown paper bag around it. "The unknown wrap" It won't be the first time I fished one for a season and redid it the following winter.
thanks for all the help,
Kenny Mac

 

[bonsiguy]

on the madera i like to use for the first coat a thinned with water and two more of reg white stuff i found with the thinned coat it soaked in faster and less blotching and the two top coats sealed up everything nice. mac is the cp too thick i also found when i worked from the big bottol i was getting too thick a mix and there was lil dried up boogers in the mix also brush i found has alot to do with it the desposable brushes suck.good hair brushes are a must to keep bubbles from forming.

 

[CAPT RICHI]

I just finished a GUSA with Madeira thread use two coats of flexcote cp with no problems.I did the heavy coat & wipe process..

 

[MacSquid]

Thanks Bonsiguy and capt.Richi

I have tried thinning the flex coat for the first application before but havn't tried it on madeira. I got good results with the gudebrod on regular nylon so just kept useing it when I wrapped with the new thread. I'll have to check it out and see which I like best with the Madeira. I have four types of cp on hand so it looks like testing time.

 

[RUFUSZ]

I had the same problem with blotches on the last rod I built using the new 811. Definitely had a good soaking coat and wicked off the excess. The problem seems to get worse as the cp ages since I did'nt have the problem when it was first opened. I even tried thinning a small batch and using two coats with the same results, brown blotches. I dont understand how something as simple as solids in solvent could go bad, but it sure seems that way. I really liked the old clear 811, dont know why they changed it. I guess its time to do some testing again.

 

[DragonMaster]

There is one thing that can cause you to get blotches that hasn't been mentioned here and that is CP that has been frozen. If the stuff you have was in a shipment that got left out on a shipping dock at some point and froze it's possible that it's no longer any good.

 

[CAPT RICHI]

DragonMaster wrote:
There is one thing that can cause you to get blotches that hasn't been mentioned here and that is CP that has been frozen. If the stuff you have was in a shipment that got left out on a shipping dock at some point and froze it's possible that it's no longer any good.

Thats good to know

 

[Captneilf]

Hi,

IMHO anytime you use cs/cp you are asking for trouble. I do my best never to use it. That being said I realize many people like to use it or have to use it. A RodCrafter friend has used CS/CP for years very successfully but I believe he uses cs/cp on all his rods and they are beautiful.

Most rods wrapped today are black or graphite colored. I would not use light colors of A nylon thread. The darker colors I would. Even using cs/cp on the light threads the under blank color permeates the thread color. Try D nylon thread but most of us don't use D thread.

So, for protection just use A NCP thread where you stand a good chance of the cs/cp working fine. Yes, you have to use cs/cp on light colored A NCP thread that is wrapped over a dark color blank.
It may take 3 or 4 coats. AS a rod builder it is imperative that you do your own tests and build up a storage of knowledge.

How do you know if the cs/cp worked? Most may apply finish and then the dark spots show up. I was taught at the RodCrafter Seminars to brush alcohol over the wraps after the cs/cp was dry. If dark spots show up the cs/cp did not cover or soak in properly. The alcohol will dry quickly and do no harm to the applied cs/cp. Now reapply the cs/cp and retest.

If you use a water based cs/cp on the wraps the complete area where the cs/cp was used has to be coated with finish. If cs/cp is allowed outside the finish areas, remember it is water soluble, then as the cs/cp disolves a tunnel under the finish may be opened to allow water to seep into the threads. Before the last coat of finish clean off all the areas with alcohol, ends of wraps and around the guide feet. Then apply the finish. Water in the wraps causes cloudy wraps when wet and the wraps look good again afterthe rod dried off in sunny hot weather.

Neil

 

[MacSquid]

Thanks again

DM, it is possible that the cp froze as it was delivered in winter.(that's when I do 90% of my building) I'll keep that in mind when ordering in the future.

Neil, Thanks you are always helpful with your experiance and knowledge. Unfortunatly with the madeira thread cp is a must.