NorEast Fishing Forum banner
21 - 40 of 77 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Discussion Starter · #21 ·
IMMIGRATION

LI......Typical shoot from the hip liberal response. In your glee to shoot me down, you accused me of being biased against Hispanics and a racist.
PLEASE REVIEW MY POSTS IN THIS THREAD AND TELL ME WHERE THE WORD HISPANIC APPEARS. IT DOESN'T.

WHY SHOULD EVEY MIDDLE CLASS WORKER BE CHARGED WITH THE BURDEN OF SUPPORTING THIS THIRD WORLD ELEMENT AND INSTANTLY BRING THEM TO MIDDLE CLASS STATUS. SOMETHING MY FAMILY HAS WORKED AT AND EARNED LEGALLY FOR FOUR GENERATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.

LARRY
WHO IS "WE"??????? I DIDN'T KILL ANY INDIANS! NOR DID ANY OF MY RELATIVES SINCE THEY ENTERED THIS COUNTRY LEGALLY IN THE LATE 1800s.

MAKOMIKE:
You are right. You will be able to crawl under the fence the day before the deadline for the "Z" Visa. When they ask you when you entered, just continue lying and say prior to Jan '07. So the floodgates are now open, and I hear they are pouring in like roaches!!

This post edited by makobob 11:29 AM 05/30/2007
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,980 Posts
I have an idea, how about we get all the people who are for this bill to sponsor someone. They can co sign the papers to make sure they pay the required fees and make sure they pay taxes for at least 10 years. If the sponsoree fails to pay, the the sponsorer has to foot the bill.

I bet they run for the hills
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Failure to respond to the issues...

makobob wrote:
LI......Typical shoot from the hip liberal response. In your glee to shoot me down, you accused me of being biased against Hispanics and a racist.
PLEASE REVIEW MY POSTS IN THIS THREAD AND TELL ME WHERE THE WORD HISPANIC APPEARS. IT DOESN'T.

WHY SHOULD EVEY MIDDLE CLASS WORKER BE CHARGED WITH THE BURDEN OF SUPPORTING THIS THIRD WORLD ELEMENT AND INSTANTLY BRING THEM TO MIDDLE CLASS STATUS. SOMETHING MY FAMILY HAS WORKED AT AND EARNED LEGALLY FOR FOUR GENERATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.

LARRY
WHO IS "WE"??????? I DIDN'T KILL ANY INDIANS! NOR DID ANY OF MY RELATIVES SINCE THEY ENTERED THIS COUNTRY LEGALLY IN THE LATE 1800s.

MAKOMIKE:
You are right. You will be able to crawl under the fence the day before the deadline for the "Z" Visa. When they ask you when you entered, just continue lying and say prior to Jan '07. So the floodgates are now open, and I hear they are pouring in like roaches!!

1. So quick you are to label my response as a typical "liberal" response. Throughout this post I have provided sound reasoning and arguments to refute your statements. Have you responded to my comments about BankofAmerica? No. Response to the feasibility of a National Database? No. Have you made any attempt to defend Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), the organization from which you get your faulty statistics? No. A debate on the merits, actually addressing my responses would seem more appropriate. Continue with your labeling though.

2. You are correct, you didn't explicity use the word "hispanics." Its called an inference. If you look at methods of entry into the United States, there isnt a large influx through the air, so lets ignore that. Influx through Canada? Lets ignore that too. You said the word "fence." Specifically you said "crawl under the fence..." Miami, the place where haitians get their boats shot at, does not have a fence. You see, if you were referring to a "BEACH" I would think that you were referring to illegal immigration through Florida and maybe a different group. Does the west coast have fences? No, not really. So, lets be honest about what we are talking about. A fence that runs along the Mexican border (read: Hispanics). Besides that, the proposals for immigration fences have all been in response to Mexican immigration. So, it was reasonable for me to infer that you were referring to Mexican immigration, or rather, immigrants that border cross through Mexico. Similarly, if you talked about "swimming a river" i would have infered you were referring to the Rio Grande.

3. Makobob. You repeatedly state that your family entered the country legally in the 1800s. Might I suggest a little research for you. Compare and contrast the economic/living/social conditions of the country from which your family came and the econcomic/living/social conditions of Mexico City. You can pick any city from which we see a current influx of immigrants, but Mexico City should be easy enough. At the same time, compare and contrast America's immigration laws and rules at the time your ancestors immigrated and the current system of immigration laws and rules. Personal question that you dont have to answer: Can you be sure that your family would have waited in their country of origin for 9 or 10 years waiting for their paperwork to be processed while they lived in squalor?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
68,838 Posts
LItoMD
Regarding your indian (native american) references. Do you realized that in every country that makes uf the G-8 industrialized countries of the world, the original aborigines were overrun and subjugated by another people? And yes that's true even in Japan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,588 Posts
LongIslandtoMD wrote:
Personal question that you dont have to answer: Can you be sure that your family would have waited in their country of origin for 9 or 10 years waiting for their paperwork to be processed while they lived in squalor?

So that makes it OK to come here illegally? That makes it OK for us to rush to make them citizens?

If that's your thesis, stand back! The Biblical-proportion flood of humanity from squaller and poor countries is on it's way. IOW, if just because someone lives in pverty, dirty, squaller conditions where they are now that makes it OK to come to America any way they can and **** the documents and procedures and laws, why bother with immigration laws at all?!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30,413 Posts
MakoMike wrote:
One additional question. Lets assume that, like it or not, this bill passes and becomes law. what's going to stop it from happening all over again? Do you realy belive that they will stop illegla immigration this time, when they didn't even try in the last 20 years since the last amnesty?

Oh, it'going to continue and in typicle fashion nothing will or can be done about it.:mad: You can make all the laws and regulations you want and the illegals are still going to sneak in.:rolleyes:
Do you think for one minute that even if this does pass, that the illegals are going to come forward...............**** no. They have it made the way they are. Why would they come forward and have to leave the country, pay a fine, pay $5,000, then go through the legal immigration process and have to wait?:confused: Thats the reason most came here illegally to begin with.:rolleyes:
You want to stop illegal immigration...........just do away with any form of border control..................cause it aint working anyway.
Just make it so anyone can come and go as they please and let them all work whereever they can get it. Before long, the demand for them will not be as great and the competition for jobs will slowly fall.:rolleyes:
When the incentive to come here is gone, they will follow.

Or you can always simply exterminate any illegal found trying to cross over. That too will work as an incentive.:rolleyes:
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Jaiem wrote:
LongIslandtoMD wrote:
Personal question that you dont have to answer: Can you be sure that your family would have waited in their country of origin for 9 or 10 years waiting for their paperwork to be processed while they lived in squalor?

So that makes it OK to come here illegally? That makes it OK for us to rush to make them citizens?

If that's your thesis, stand back! The Biblical-proportion flood of humanity from squaller and poor countries is on it's way. IOW, if just because someone lives in pverty, dirty, squaller conditions where they are now that makes it OK to come to America any way they can and **** the documents and procedures and laws, why bother with immigration laws at all?!



Im disappointed that you all have seized on my proposed question as my offering it as justification. Rather, as the full numbered paragraph reads, I was suggesting that makobob do the research and gain understanding into the life of an "illegal." The heart of the question, which I am sure you all understood, was that quite possibly makobob's ancestors and the current immigrants arent suitable for comparison. Quite possibly the societal pressures have changed as have the immigration rules. It was food for thought, not justification.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Human nature

MakoMike wrote:
LItoMD
Regarding your indian (native american) references. Do you realized that in every country that makes uf the G-8 industrialized countries of the world, the original aborigines were overrun and subjugated by another people? And yes that's true even in Japan.

So what does that say about human nature then? Use of small pox blankets. Decimation of a people's language and culture. Failing to provide them with just compensation for land that was taken. That says what about the US and the other G8 countries?

America prides itself on standing alone and doing whats right. Your reference to the other G8 countries proves what?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
520 Posts
'Compare and contrast the economic/living/social conditions of the country from which your family came and the econcomic/living/social conditions of Mexico City. '

Ok now you've gotten my ire up. OK lets see Mexico City , the most dangerous city on earth , has approximately 1600 kidnappings for ransom a MONTH! Who do you think is doing this students on spring break from Ohio? Good chance the people committing these crimes are MEXICANS!!!! The I rish side of my family , and many other Irish immigrants, came here because of the potato blight. On the Italian side of my family I have relatives who waited up to 12 years to enter this country LEGALLY! And you know what , in anticipation of coming to this country they all learned ENGLISH to fit in and acclimate to the American way of life.
I've heard, seen and read enough about these "poor immigrants" to say I'm not in favor of this bill and disappointed in ANY politician that thinks this is a good deal! (Kinda like re electing Ted "the ladykiller Kennedy everytime since 1963)

Good Fishin
UNC
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Ire up

OK lets see Mexico City , the most dangerous city on earth , has approximately 1600 kidnappings for ransom a MONTH! Who do you think is doing this students on spring break from Ohio? Good chance the people committing these crimes are MEXICANS!!!!
--------------------------------------------------
Thank you for making one of my points for me Uncle Gary. In addition to an absurd crime rate, unemployment figures are ridiculous in Mexico City. In short, many of the issues you find associated with extreme poverty exist in Mexico City. People on this board bemoan the cost of living on Long Island and cite their family as a reason to move away. The same principle exists here, people want better for their family. The conditions in Mexico City might be a bit more harsh than in Italy when your family came over. Maybe not. Either way, extreme conditions often cause people to take extreme actions. You might not agree. My question is, if you were born in Port Au Prince, or Mexico City, or Havanna, maybe your views would be different. UncleGary and those out there, what makes you different from that person in Port Au Prince or Mexico City who was born into poverty?
------------------------------------------------------
And you know what , in anticipation of coming to this country they all learned ENGLISH to fit in and acclimate to the American way of life.
------------------------------------------------------
Uncle Gary, why did they learn English? Out of undying love and respect for the United States, a country which, at that time, they were not citizens of? Or did they do it for selfish purposes, like to make THEIR transition here better? Do you think it was because they did it out of respect for John Q. Citizen? Maybe they did. You can tell me, I can only guess.
I imagine, however, its similar to when anyone travels abroad. You learn a few key phrases out of a book or ?Learn French Fast CD?, as a means for YOUR visit to go smoothly. Not out of respect for the Native French persons you will encounter.

----------------------------------------------------------
Uncle Gary, how far should it go? You say, acclimate to the American way of life? Learn English you say. But how much more. If you could make the rules, what rules would you make? What standard would you set?

I do hope that you are very involved in the raising of America?s children to speak proper English. It seems only fair that if you are so insistent on someone learning a second language BEFORE they come to the States, those who are born here should speak proper English, right?
--------------------------------------------------------
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,980 Posts
LI to MD. What exactly is your point. No sarcasm, no posts designed to incite introspection, just your point boiled down to a few clear lines. Forget what other people say, just tell us what YOUR point is.

Mine,

regardless of where you came from,ancestry, language, or color, If you are illegally in this country, then get out. If you want to enter legally, then apply, gain admittance( LEGALLY) and become a productive, tax paying, non social service abusing, licensed and insured driver,that adds to the country and does not take advantadge of loopholes to gain free anything.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,324 Posts
LItoMD wrote:
quote:

The financial woes experienced by many are surely not at the hand of the "masses" of illegals that are "flooding" into the country and instantly having "seed" babies. Rather, its do to extravagant living and irresponsibility.

Be careful with that one. When your property values drop thru the floor because the slum lords start buying up the houses in your neighborhood to house 20 at a clip, you come talk to me. I live in Patchogue (next to Farmingville) and it is starting to spill over into my neck of the woods, and I'm not happy about it. The corner house near me was bought by a slum lord, and he even has them living in the garage. Place looks like crap. My neighbor is a Suffolk County detective, and he can't even get satisfaction from Crookhaven Town. A nice little cottage industry (no pun intended) housing illegal immigrants at the cost of hard-working (and legal) middle class neighborhoods. It's real simple.

1) They are here illegally. I repeat, they are here illegally.
2) Their presense negatively impacts a portion of the legal population of this country. Period.

I am not unsympathetic to the plight of some countries in the world. Africa has a lot worse issues than Mexico. But there are other courses of action that can be taken to help, other than just opening your borders and allowing your country to be overrun illegally. -Rich
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,588 Posts
LongIslandtoMD wrote:
In addition to an absurd crime rate, unemployment figures are ridiculous in Mexico City. In short, many of the issues you find associated with extreme poverty exist in Mexico City. People on this board bemoan the cost of living on Long Island and cite their family as a reason to move away. The same principle exists here, people want better for their family.

Once again, why does that make it OK to come here illegal? Why does that make it OK to belong here just because they set toe on American soil? Why is that a good excuse for outright flouting American immigration laws and just showing up on American soil??

'Cause as I said before, if that's your thesis, if that's now the new standard by which to review immigrants - that it's OK to get here by hook or by crook or by any means necessary so long as you get here because you are leaving someplace of poverty - then why stop with Mexico?

How about most of the Bahamas and Caribean?(sp)
How about most of Africa? Southeast Asia? The Philipeans? Eastern Europe? Much of Russia and the former Russian territories? ('Borat' wasn't too far from the truth for countries like Kazekstan).

You can't have a double standard. If it's OK for Mexicans to just come here and have full rights and citizenship just because they are in poverty back in Mexico then the rest of the world deserves to be here too for the same reasons. Fair is fair, right? :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Why should I care?

LI...
Why should I care about the plight of the poor Mexican.
Here is a research project for you....The Boston Tea Party and the Revolutionary War. To some extent the Civil War.
What did the American people do to a gov't that was oppressive, corrupt and giving nothing in return? Fight, win and continue as a unified, stronger nation.

Until the Mexicans do that(since you brought up the mexican word) and revolt against their government that is oppressive, corrupt etc.
They deserve nothing!!!! Period.
So what do many of them do, come to America to destroy our society. Everything we have worked our asses off to build. They know living 25 to a house is wrong, they know being here is wrong, they know driving without a license is wrong, they know not having insurance is wrong, they know volleyball games until the wee hours of the morning in a residential neighborhood is wrong and on and on.

Gee, I think I hear someone from Switzerland calling me on the phone. I think he cares about my plight as a dopey middle class American stuggling to make ends meet and support 12 million criminal sponges at the same time. Oh Oh he wants to support me and my family financially and raise me to upper class status. He is telling me, come to Switzerland and helpmyself to everything, AND DEMAND IT!!

Oh, I just woke up, it was only a dream!

PS Are these 12 million new "Z" visa holders subject to the DRAFT??? Or,
just the law abiding American citizens???
Do they get to stay at home to nurture their families and dance in the streets??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
PURSUITWA wrote:
LI to MD. What exactly is your point. No sarcasm, no posts designed to incite introspection, just your point boiled down to a few clear lines. Forget what other people say, just tell us what YOUR point is.

Mine,

regardless of where you came from,ancestry, language, or color, If you are illegally in this country, then get out. If you want to enter legally, then apply, gain admittance( LEGALLY) and become a productive, tax paying, non social service abusing, licensed and insured driver,that adds to the country and does not take advantadge of loopholes to gain free anything.

What is my point? Here you go. You quote Sophocles for the principle that "The truth is always the strongest argument." My goal is to do just that. Example, point out Makobob's bad stats.

My point is that taking the approach that all illegals should, as you so eloquently put it "get out" is unrealistic, and unworkable. My point is also that I was fortunate enough to be born in the United States. This has afforded me a great many opportunities. The disgusting sense of entitlement that many US citizens have disturbs me. Whether a person is here legally or not, they still deserve my respect and compassion as a HUMAN BEING. Being human also means having an understanding of someone else's plight. Does that mean, we should open the border to any and all? Simply, no. But does that mean they deserve to be beaten by vigilante minutemen? No.

How I came to my view is through experience. Hearing the leaders of the minutemen talk, then getting to know a families that immigrated here LEGALLY. And then getting know of persons who immigrated here illegally. You see, its much more difficult to talk about immigration in harsh tones and suggest rash actions when you have actually met and talked with people.

I think there should be humane border security, realistic immigration allowances per country, and a realistic way for those who are here to become citizens. Round 'em up and put 'em out is unrealistic. Also,I would like to get rid of the condescending attitudes had by many and stop the usage of overgeneralizations.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,588 Posts
LongIslandtoMD wrote:
The disgusting sense of entitlement that many US citizens have disturbs me.

What about the "disgusting sense of entitlement" we see when throngs of illegals march in the streets of American demanding rights?!

quote:
Whether a person is here legally or not, they still deserve my respect and compassion as a HUMAN BEING.

So again, that makes it OK to break our laws?

Respect as a human being. Fine. But they broke our laws, flout breaking our laws, don't care if they are breaking our laws, demand rights and bennies while breaking our laws...what about the respect and compassion THEY exhibit (or lack thereof) of our laws and customs?

Respect and compassion is a 2-way street.


ps- What does any of this have to do with people who are breaking the law?! Why can't you answer that simple question??
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
68,838 Posts
LongIslandtoMD wrote:


So what does that say about human nature then? Use of small pox blankets. Decimation of a people's language and culture. Failing to provide them with just compensation for land that was taken. That says what about the US and the other G8 countries?

America prides itself on standing alone and doing whats right. Your reference to the other G8 countries proves what?

It proves that since time imemorial, might makes right. The bigger more powerful clans, races, tribes, call them wahatever you want, displace the "native" people and take the resources for themselves. And rememeber that a lot of the land grab from the native Americans took place even before there was a United States. Today it's a moral crime to waste resources, yestersay it was a moral crime to not use resources. Times change, but nothing will undo history. The native Americans even did it to each other, but white eyes had the superior armamaents and numbers. Do you see the Italians (Romans)apologizing to the most opf western Europe that they conquered? Are the Russians apoligizing to the ugurs, uzbeks, etc? Are the chinese apolgizing to Mongolians? Get over it. We treat the indenginous people of the U.S. better than most of the countries of the world.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,953 Posts
What is the solution to all of this? I sure don?t know. I have my opinions, but what do I know?

I know that, just because you speak Spanish, doesn?t make you Mexican.

I know that we have illegals from every country on this planet in the USA.

I know that we share a border with mexico, so everyone crossing it illegally, is automatically assumed to be mexican, by the average joe.

I know that I have family and friends, on both sides of the mexican border.

I know that approximately 25% of the land mass of what is now the USA, was mexico, until the corrupt mexican government (Santa Ana) sold it to the USA for a pitiful sum.

I know that there is a thriving upper and middle class in mexico, that has no desire to leave their country for the USA. They like to visit, but their loyalty is to their country.

I know that the gap, between prosperity and poverty is much wider in mexico, than in the USA.

I know the government of mexico, is and always has been corrupt from top to bottom.
I know that mexico has vast natural resources, that rival any country in the world.

I know that the mexican people, have revolted in force, against their corrupt government repeatedly, and successfully. What they got, were new hogs, at the trough every time.

I know that if I break the law, and I am caught, I will be punished in some way. I also think, it is bad policy to reward people for breaking the law.

I know that, because of my ties to mexico, I am somewhat conflicted with my views.

I know how they cross the border, and I know how to stop them. So does our government, but no one has the spine for it. I know that many people, posing as latinos, are crossing into the USA, with the intent to do us harm.

I know that the border has been a sieve for hundreds of years.

I know that it will continue, unless we find someone with the guts, to step up and stop it.

I know that, when we can?t fire on a Mosque, when someone is shooting at our soldiers from there, we can?t kill em all or send them all home either. ****, we don?t even have the resolve to round em up.

I know that the southern border of mexico, with Guatemala and Belize is very narrow.


Maybe we should buy the rest of it, and be done with it!!!!!!!!!


Debate is wonderful and healthy, but what is the practical humane solution to this?

This post was not meant, to put anybody down or make them wrong. It?s just some of what I consider reality for me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,980 Posts
I, we, you, have earned the entitlement that comes with being a citezen of the U.S. Our Familes have shed blood, so that we can live here with the rights that we enjoy. With those rights come responsibilities.One of those resposibilities is to pay your fair share. So either they pay up or they should leave. The United States citizenship is a membership that doesn't come free. You can't just walk in here without paying your dues and contributing to the good of all.

Like I said, you should sponsor an illegal alien. Co sign for his debt and taxes to make sure he pays his fair share.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,588 Posts
AZFISHKILLER wrote:
I know that approximately 25% of the land mass of what is now the USA, was mexico, until the corrupt mexican government (Santa Ana) sold it to the USA for a pitiful sum.

Manhattan island was bought from the local indians for $24 worth of beads and trinkets.

Maybe we should give it back too?
 
21 - 40 of 77 Posts
Top