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I?ll be brief on this one, I have a few other things to take care of today, but wanted to post this.


THE TRUTH!
THERE IS NO FEDERAL DATABASE TO DO CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, YOU HAVE TO GO TO EACH AGENCY AND STATE.
GET THIS! THEY HAVE 24 HOURS TO DO IT!!!!! IF NOT THEY ARE CONSIDERED CLEAN!

The National Crime Information Center is maintained by the FBI and limited by federal law to law enforcement agencies. Similarly, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System is also maintained by the FBI to provide information on people desiring to purchase firearms. Access is restricted to agencies authorized by the FBI. There are obviously issues involved with obtaining a criminal background check, but access to such a database is not insurmountable and can be easily cured.

ABOUT THE FINE. BANK OF AMERICA HAS A PLAN TO LEND THE 5K TO THE APPLICANT WITH NO CREDIT HISTORY. GEE I WONDER WHO'S CAMPAIGN THEY PAID OFF!!!!!!!!!

So, lets review. One of the largest financial institutions gives loans without credit checks because of their good nature? Thats nonsense. So, BankofAmerica is giving out free money? Last I checked, BoA didn?t get to be one of the world?s largest financial institutions by making bad loans. Anyone who banks with BoA knows that you definitely don?t get something for nothing with them.


ANOTHER THING. A GUY CRAWLS UNDER THE FENCE ONE DAY BEFORE THE DEADLINE TO APPLY FOR THE NEW VISA. HE GETS A LOAN HE WILL NEVER PAY OFF FROM BANK OF AMERICA, APPLIES AND GETS A "Z" VISA CARD. HE CAN LIVE AND WORK HERE INDEFINITELY.

Failure to follow the proscribed system would result in a number of people that live here illegal, unchecked by authority. This is a natural consequence of any immigration system. This is nothing new and is inherent in any immigration system.


PELOSI THINKS IMMIGRATION SHOULD BE FAMILY BASED. LET THEM IN JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SOMEONES RELATIVE.

Immigration, as a system should be family based. Speaking in abstracts without regard to the familial unit is reckless. It has been demonstrated that having familial ties helps to ensure success in a foreign country. History has demonstrated this. Example: Your brother Anthony comes stateside and establishes himself. When you decide to come over, you already have connections to the states. Your transition is easier. This example has been boiled down to the bare-bones, but you should get the point.


GREAT, BRING IN THE OLD THAT DON'T WORK SO THEY CAN SUCK SOCIAL SECURITY DRY!
Have you heard the discussions on the financial viability of social security? Its an inverted triangle. With the pointed end feeding the larger base. Its future is doomed. Will these immigrants really suck it dry? If they haven?t paid into the system, they wouldnt be entitled to recover benefits anyway.

KEEP OUT THE HIGHLY SKILLED WORKER WHO WILL EARN A GOOD SALARY AND PAY A DECENT AMOUNT IN INCOME AND SS TAXES. SMART. HOW MUCH WILL A "Z" CARD HOLDER EARN... NOT ENOUGHT TO PAY FEDERAL INCOME TAX, THAT IS FOR SURE. WITH THE EARNED INCOME CREDITS, CHILD TAX CREDIT ETC, THE FEDS WILL HAVE TO SEND THEM A CHECK!!!!!!!!!

How much will a ?z? visa holder earn? Your statement/question implies that a ?z? visa will not earn a high wage. Why is that so? There are illegal immigrants that make decent money. Not all live below the poverty level. And why should they?

You attempt to distinguish ?illegals? as not paying their FIT. Their money is deducted from their paychecks the same as everyone elses. If they make below a certain amount, they will receive some of that money back. This is no different than John Q. Citizen. In fact, look at most recent college-graduate?s tax return. Most students just graduating from college don?t make a great deal, and are eligible for those same tax credits.

AM I NUTS OR WHAT???? THIS IS WHAT OUR PRESIDENT AND LAWMAKERS IN DC CONSIDER A GREAT PLAN. AM I MISSING SOMETHING?

Your story doesnt include anything about actual people. My challenge to you is this. Research or, better yet, go out and talk to families that have fought/are fighting the immigration battle. Talk to those who have immigrated legally and those who have done so illegally. Their stories will help you to understand why your one-sided approach is unworkable and unrealistic. What separates you from any one born in Mexico City is that you were born in the States.

What happened to: Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

PS: Am I wrong to assume that those statistics in your signature line come from Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR)? FAIR is a group that has accepted contributions from the Pioneer Fund. I am not going to debate the Pioneer funds questionable reputation, you all can do the research on that. Nonetheless, the Pioneer fund has been noted by the decidedly conservative Wall Street Journal as being ?a white supremacist outfit devoted to racial purity through eugenics.? Maybe FAIR isn?t the best place to get statistics. Just my opinion.
 

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Why should I welcome families exceeding two or three dozen people. What do they have to offer this country? Four grandparents, umpteen uncles, aunts, first cousins. DO THE MATH.
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I was chastised in my first post. People bemoaned my ?tactics.? So let me be clear. I find the above statement insensitive and, in my opinion, borderline racist. Hispanic families (not all immigrant families are Hispanic) are marginally larger than American families. Read: 3.87 people per Hispanic family, while the national average for all families is 3.19 people. These are people, not rabbits or mice as your post suggests. I know that you would never associate with these ?illegals? but you would likely find that border crossing is often cost prohibitive and extremely dangerous.

What do they have to offer this country? It seems that only a fringe group, in which I am assuming you are included, think that immigrants have little to nothing to contribute to this country. Immigrants and those who were forced to immigrate have literally built this country. And continue to do so.

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I am tired of supporting this element.
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Element? People. You are tired of supporting these fathers, mothers and children. You are entitled to feel the way that you do, but still, they are humans.

For the most part they take and give nothing in return.. Why should I pay to educate these illegals?????? Why should I pay for there handouts: food stamps, or Debit Cards. Go to Meat Farms or Compare Foods on the weekend and stand at the checkout counter and watch AND LEARN.

Makobob, when you go to MeatFarms and Compare Foods on the weekend, and you stand in line, how do you spot an illegal? How can you tell who amongst those using Foodstamps/independence cards are illegal? Or, do you have the ability to perceive how long a person has been receiving said ?handouts?? Can you tell when someone has also received a governmental grant for educational businesses, or to start a small business?
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Most of all I am tired of listening to liberal whiners like you!
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Hmmm. You assume my politics. Lets just assume I am a liberal. It seems that I have conservative company in my support of this plan. (I would like to modify this plan, but for the sake of argument, I will support it). It is, after all, supported by GWB. If that doesn?t count as conservative, I don?t know what is. Seems it isn?t only liberal whiners.
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I am earning a great salary, but can't afford these handouts anymore.
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This rhetoric reminds me of a debate with James Gilchrist. Might I suggest a donation to the Minutemen. Maybe we should even sanction their actions.
 

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Mathematics

Jaiem wrote:
Something else to consider:

What happens when an American citizen marries a non-citizen?

On the whole the non-citizen automaticaly becomes a citizen (more or less, the paper work is just a formality). Same with any children they have outside the U.S.

So.....

We've heard there are 12 million illegals who would suddenly become legal citizens. If those 12 million are married now or get married after becoming legal thier spouses automatically citizens. So that's 24 million people. Then if they have children, lets say 2 kids on average, that's potentially 48 million+ new people in one fell swoop!


I get your point, you think the numbers are really a persuasive reason. If the minutemen were better at their jobs, maybe we wouldnt have this problem. They are definitely seeking donations.

But lets talk about your math. Lets assume there are 12 million immigrants. We will also assume they would "suddenly" become legal citizens (which they wouldnt). Well, to reach your 48 million number, every one of those 12 million would have to be of the marrying age and would also marry someone from another country, in essence bringing them here. This would make sense in a "birds of a feather stick together" world, but that isnt the case. Also, each of those couples would have to reproduce. Unlikely.

These alarmist numbers are just that, alarmist. The financial woes experienced by many are surely not at the hand of the "masses" of illegals that are "flooding" into the country and instantly having "seed" babies. Rather, its do to extravagant living and irresponsibility.
 

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Casinos and Reservations

Larry, we gave the native Americans reservations. Which amount to about 2.3% of the total land in the United States? What more could they want? Hey, ?we? even gave them casinos.

Nevermind the fact that the quality of life on those reservations is among the poorest to be found in the United States and is comparable to a developing country. Cf. Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.

They remind me of another group of people who claim to have been wronged by ?our forefathers.? Nevermind that statistics show that 37% of people attend college nationally. For Native Americans this statistic plummets to 17%, lower than any other ethnic or racial group in America. Nationally, 45% of all people have at least a bachelor?s degree. For Native Americans this statistic once again plummets to 15%, also lower than any other ethnic or racial group in America today.

We are a people who OBEY LAWS and make good on any injustices that occur. Ha. That?s laughable.
 

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Failure to respond to the issues...

makobob wrote:
LI......Typical shoot from the hip liberal response. In your glee to shoot me down, you accused me of being biased against Hispanics and a racist.
PLEASE REVIEW MY POSTS IN THIS THREAD AND TELL ME WHERE THE WORD HISPANIC APPEARS. IT DOESN'T.

WHY SHOULD EVEY MIDDLE CLASS WORKER BE CHARGED WITH THE BURDEN OF SUPPORTING THIS THIRD WORLD ELEMENT AND INSTANTLY BRING THEM TO MIDDLE CLASS STATUS. SOMETHING MY FAMILY HAS WORKED AT AND EARNED LEGALLY FOR FOUR GENERATIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.

LARRY
WHO IS "WE"??????? I DIDN'T KILL ANY INDIANS! NOR DID ANY OF MY RELATIVES SINCE THEY ENTERED THIS COUNTRY LEGALLY IN THE LATE 1800s.

MAKOMIKE:
You are right. You will be able to crawl under the fence the day before the deadline for the "Z" Visa. When they ask you when you entered, just continue lying and say prior to Jan '07. So the floodgates are now open, and I hear they are pouring in like roaches!!

1. So quick you are to label my response as a typical "liberal" response. Throughout this post I have provided sound reasoning and arguments to refute your statements. Have you responded to my comments about BankofAmerica? No. Response to the feasibility of a National Database? No. Have you made any attempt to defend Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), the organization from which you get your faulty statistics? No. A debate on the merits, actually addressing my responses would seem more appropriate. Continue with your labeling though.

2. You are correct, you didn't explicity use the word "hispanics." Its called an inference. If you look at methods of entry into the United States, there isnt a large influx through the air, so lets ignore that. Influx through Canada? Lets ignore that too. You said the word "fence." Specifically you said "crawl under the fence..." Miami, the place where haitians get their boats shot at, does not have a fence. You see, if you were referring to a "BEACH" I would think that you were referring to illegal immigration through Florida and maybe a different group. Does the west coast have fences? No, not really. So, lets be honest about what we are talking about. A fence that runs along the Mexican border (read: Hispanics). Besides that, the proposals for immigration fences have all been in response to Mexican immigration. So, it was reasonable for me to infer that you were referring to Mexican immigration, or rather, immigrants that border cross through Mexico. Similarly, if you talked about "swimming a river" i would have infered you were referring to the Rio Grande.

3. Makobob. You repeatedly state that your family entered the country legally in the 1800s. Might I suggest a little research for you. Compare and contrast the economic/living/social conditions of the country from which your family came and the econcomic/living/social conditions of Mexico City. You can pick any city from which we see a current influx of immigrants, but Mexico City should be easy enough. At the same time, compare and contrast America's immigration laws and rules at the time your ancestors immigrated and the current system of immigration laws and rules. Personal question that you dont have to answer: Can you be sure that your family would have waited in their country of origin for 9 or 10 years waiting for their paperwork to be processed while they lived in squalor?
 

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Jaiem wrote:
LongIslandtoMD wrote:
Personal question that you dont have to answer: Can you be sure that your family would have waited in their country of origin for 9 or 10 years waiting for their paperwork to be processed while they lived in squalor?

So that makes it OK to come here illegally? That makes it OK for us to rush to make them citizens?

If that's your thesis, stand back! The Biblical-proportion flood of humanity from squaller and poor countries is on it's way. IOW, if just because someone lives in pverty, dirty, squaller conditions where they are now that makes it OK to come to America any way they can and **** the documents and procedures and laws, why bother with immigration laws at all?!



Im disappointed that you all have seized on my proposed question as my offering it as justification. Rather, as the full numbered paragraph reads, I was suggesting that makobob do the research and gain understanding into the life of an "illegal." The heart of the question, which I am sure you all understood, was that quite possibly makobob's ancestors and the current immigrants arent suitable for comparison. Quite possibly the societal pressures have changed as have the immigration rules. It was food for thought, not justification.
 

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Human nature

MakoMike wrote:
LItoMD
Regarding your indian (native american) references. Do you realized that in every country that makes uf the G-8 industrialized countries of the world, the original aborigines were overrun and subjugated by another people? And yes that's true even in Japan.

So what does that say about human nature then? Use of small pox blankets. Decimation of a people's language and culture. Failing to provide them with just compensation for land that was taken. That says what about the US and the other G8 countries?

America prides itself on standing alone and doing whats right. Your reference to the other G8 countries proves what?
 

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Ire up

OK lets see Mexico City , the most dangerous city on earth , has approximately 1600 kidnappings for ransom a MONTH! Who do you think is doing this students on spring break from Ohio? Good chance the people committing these crimes are MEXICANS!!!!
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Thank you for making one of my points for me Uncle Gary. In addition to an absurd crime rate, unemployment figures are ridiculous in Mexico City. In short, many of the issues you find associated with extreme poverty exist in Mexico City. People on this board bemoan the cost of living on Long Island and cite their family as a reason to move away. The same principle exists here, people want better for their family. The conditions in Mexico City might be a bit more harsh than in Italy when your family came over. Maybe not. Either way, extreme conditions often cause people to take extreme actions. You might not agree. My question is, if you were born in Port Au Prince, or Mexico City, or Havanna, maybe your views would be different. UncleGary and those out there, what makes you different from that person in Port Au Prince or Mexico City who was born into poverty?
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And you know what , in anticipation of coming to this country they all learned ENGLISH to fit in and acclimate to the American way of life.
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Uncle Gary, why did they learn English? Out of undying love and respect for the United States, a country which, at that time, they were not citizens of? Or did they do it for selfish purposes, like to make THEIR transition here better? Do you think it was because they did it out of respect for John Q. Citizen? Maybe they did. You can tell me, I can only guess.
I imagine, however, its similar to when anyone travels abroad. You learn a few key phrases out of a book or ?Learn French Fast CD?, as a means for YOUR visit to go smoothly. Not out of respect for the Native French persons you will encounter.

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Uncle Gary, how far should it go? You say, acclimate to the American way of life? Learn English you say. But how much more. If you could make the rules, what rules would you make? What standard would you set?

I do hope that you are very involved in the raising of America?s children to speak proper English. It seems only fair that if you are so insistent on someone learning a second language BEFORE they come to the States, those who are born here should speak proper English, right?
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PURSUITWA wrote:
LI to MD. What exactly is your point. No sarcasm, no posts designed to incite introspection, just your point boiled down to a few clear lines. Forget what other people say, just tell us what YOUR point is.

Mine,

regardless of where you came from,ancestry, language, or color, If you are illegally in this country, then get out. If you want to enter legally, then apply, gain admittance( LEGALLY) and become a productive, tax paying, non social service abusing, licensed and insured driver,that adds to the country and does not take advantadge of loopholes to gain free anything.

What is my point? Here you go. You quote Sophocles for the principle that "The truth is always the strongest argument." My goal is to do just that. Example, point out Makobob's bad stats.

My point is that taking the approach that all illegals should, as you so eloquently put it "get out" is unrealistic, and unworkable. My point is also that I was fortunate enough to be born in the United States. This has afforded me a great many opportunities. The disgusting sense of entitlement that many US citizens have disturbs me. Whether a person is here legally or not, they still deserve my respect and compassion as a HUMAN BEING. Being human also means having an understanding of someone else's plight. Does that mean, we should open the border to any and all? Simply, no. But does that mean they deserve to be beaten by vigilante minutemen? No.

How I came to my view is through experience. Hearing the leaders of the minutemen talk, then getting to know a families that immigrated here LEGALLY. And then getting know of persons who immigrated here illegally. You see, its much more difficult to talk about immigration in harsh tones and suggest rash actions when you have actually met and talked with people.

I think there should be humane border security, realistic immigration allowances per country, and a realistic way for those who are here to become citizens. Round 'em up and put 'em out is unrealistic. Also,I would like to get rid of the condescending attitudes had by many and stop the usage of overgeneralizations.
 
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