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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is a great one from Geo. Bush!

The bill would give temporary legal status to millions of unlawful immigrants, provided they came forward, paid a fine and underwent criminal background checks. To apply for a green card, they would have to pay another fine, learn English, return to their home country and wait in line.

THE TRUTH!
THERE IS NO FEDERAL DATABASE TO DO CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, YOU HAVE TO GO TO EACH AGENCY AND STATE.
GET THIS! THEY HAVE 24 HOURS TO DO IT!!!!! IF NOT THEY ARE CONSIDERED CLEAN!

ABOUT THE FINE. BANK OF AMERICA HAS A PLAN TO LEND THE 5K TO THE APPLICANT WITH NO CREDIT HISTORY. GEE I WONDER WHO'S CAMPAIGN THEY PAID OFF!!!!!!!!!

ANOTHER THING. A GUY CRAWLS UNDER THE FENCE ONE DAY BEFORE THE DEADLINE TO APPLY FOR THE NEW VISA. HE GETS A LOAN HE WILL NEVER PAY OFF FROM BANK OF AMERICA, APPLIES AND GETS A "Z" VISA CARD. HE CAN LIVE AND WORK HERE INDEFINITELY.
THE GUY WHO APPLYS FROM HIS HOME COUNTRY THE PROPER WAY TO COME IN AS A GUEST WORKER CAN ONLY STAY A SHORT TIME AND HAS TO RETURN TO HIS HOME COUNTRY.

AMNESTY? SURE IS, THE LAWBREAKER WHO CRAWLED UNDER THE FENCE CAN STAY FOREVER, THE GUY WHO PROPERLY WAITS IN LINE FOR A GUEST WORKER PERMIT, GETS KICKED OUT AFTER A SHORT TIME HERE.

PELOSI THINKS IMMIGRATION SHOULD BE FAMILY BASED. LET THEM IN JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SOMEONES RELATIVE. GREAT, BRING IN THE OLD THAT DON'T WORK SO THEY CAN SUCK SOCIAL SECURITY DRY! KEEP OUT THE HIGHLY SKILLED WORKER WHO WILL EARN A GOOD SALARY AND PAY A DECENT AMOUNT IN INCOME AND SS TAXES. SMART. HOW MUCH WILL A "Z" CARD HOLDER EARN...
NOT ENOUGHT TO PAY FEDERAL INCOME TAX, THAT IS FOR SURE. WITH THE EARNED INCOME CREDITS, CHILD TAX CREDIT ETC, THE FEDS WILL HAVE TO SEND THEM A CHECK!!!!!!!!!

AM I NUTS OR WHAT???? THIS IS WHAT OUR PRESIDENT AND LAWMAKERS IN DC CONSIDER A GREAT PLAN. AM I MISSING SOMETHING?

PLEASE HELP ME TO UNDERSTAND!
 

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It's Real Simple Folks!!!!

Smoke and Mirrors and no Teeth!!!

Nothing of substance can become law in this great country of ours, without, backscratching and favors traded.

Our system of government and law making was established, before there was any fast way to communicate. You sent your reps off to washington, supossedly knowing, what was in the best interest of the people in your area, and they were expected to vote that way. It was necessary at that point in time.

WELL IT'S NOT ANYMORE!!!!!!!


If we can watch all this dribble on CSPAN, why can't we the people vote on it???????

If they had to live with what we vote for, they would think twice before proposing it. I still think we need these people to draft legislation, and look out for our interest, but that is not what happens anymore.

How hard would it be, to establish a system for registered voters, to decide these bills?????

We have PIN's for everything, why not for voting?

Just my 2 cents.

This post edited by AZFISHKILLER 03:31 PM 05/29/2007
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ocean Chaser!

Nothing at all.
JUST DO IT LEGALLY!
Just like my great Grand Parents did.
Why do I consider this land mine. I DON'T.
But, I abide by the laws of this land!
I pay my share and then some to support others who don't deserve it.
PERIOD.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
AZ Good Point

Why not a national referendum to decide the fate of immigration?
I'll tell you why. A politico needs to survive by getting as many votes as possible. This is done by lying to the public. We as citizens know that they are full of sh.t, but gullible immigrants don't.
They BS them with what they want to hear then get reelected. It is that simple.
If they put it to a vote it would be killed. Then where are they getting their votes.
 

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makobob wrote:
ANOTHER THING. A GUY CRAWLS UNDER THE FENCE ONE DAY BEFORE THE DEADLINE TO APPLY FOR THE NEW VISA. HE GETS A LOAN HE WILL NEVER PAY OFF FROM BANK OF AMERICA, APPLIES AND GETS A "Z" VISA CARD. HE CAN LIVE AND WORK HERE INDEFINITELY.


While I am adamantly opposed to the senate bill the above quote is not true. The deadline for being in this country to receive this amnesty was Jan. 1, 2007. It's already to late to sneak in and claim amnesty. Mt question is how are they going to know who was here on Jan. 1, 2007?
 

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MakoMike wrote:
makobob wrote:
ANOTHER THING. A GUY CRAWLS UNDER THE FENCE ONE DAY BEFORE THE DEADLINE TO APPLY FOR THE NEW VISA. HE GETS A LOAN HE WILL NEVER PAY OFF FROM BANK OF AMERICA, APPLIES AND GETS A "Z" VISA CARD. HE CAN LIVE AND WORK HERE INDEFINITELY.


While I am adamantly opposed to the senate bill the above quote is not true. The deadline for being in this country to receive this amnesty was Jan. 1, 2007. It's already to late to sneak in and claim amnesty. Mt question is how are they going to know who was here on Jan. 1, 2007?


All they have to do is ask them LOL
 

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I?ll be brief on this one, I have a few other things to take care of today, but wanted to post this.


THE TRUTH!
THERE IS NO FEDERAL DATABASE TO DO CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECKS, YOU HAVE TO GO TO EACH AGENCY AND STATE.
GET THIS! THEY HAVE 24 HOURS TO DO IT!!!!! IF NOT THEY ARE CONSIDERED CLEAN!

The National Crime Information Center is maintained by the FBI and limited by federal law to law enforcement agencies. Similarly, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System is also maintained by the FBI to provide information on people desiring to purchase firearms. Access is restricted to agencies authorized by the FBI. There are obviously issues involved with obtaining a criminal background check, but access to such a database is not insurmountable and can be easily cured.

ABOUT THE FINE. BANK OF AMERICA HAS A PLAN TO LEND THE 5K TO THE APPLICANT WITH NO CREDIT HISTORY. GEE I WONDER WHO'S CAMPAIGN THEY PAID OFF!!!!!!!!!

So, lets review. One of the largest financial institutions gives loans without credit checks because of their good nature? Thats nonsense. So, BankofAmerica is giving out free money? Last I checked, BoA didn?t get to be one of the world?s largest financial institutions by making bad loans. Anyone who banks with BoA knows that you definitely don?t get something for nothing with them.


ANOTHER THING. A GUY CRAWLS UNDER THE FENCE ONE DAY BEFORE THE DEADLINE TO APPLY FOR THE NEW VISA. HE GETS A LOAN HE WILL NEVER PAY OFF FROM BANK OF AMERICA, APPLIES AND GETS A "Z" VISA CARD. HE CAN LIVE AND WORK HERE INDEFINITELY.

Failure to follow the proscribed system would result in a number of people that live here illegal, unchecked by authority. This is a natural consequence of any immigration system. This is nothing new and is inherent in any immigration system.


PELOSI THINKS IMMIGRATION SHOULD BE FAMILY BASED. LET THEM IN JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE SOMEONES RELATIVE.

Immigration, as a system should be family based. Speaking in abstracts without regard to the familial unit is reckless. It has been demonstrated that having familial ties helps to ensure success in a foreign country. History has demonstrated this. Example: Your brother Anthony comes stateside and establishes himself. When you decide to come over, you already have connections to the states. Your transition is easier. This example has been boiled down to the bare-bones, but you should get the point.


GREAT, BRING IN THE OLD THAT DON'T WORK SO THEY CAN SUCK SOCIAL SECURITY DRY!
Have you heard the discussions on the financial viability of social security? Its an inverted triangle. With the pointed end feeding the larger base. Its future is doomed. Will these immigrants really suck it dry? If they haven?t paid into the system, they wouldnt be entitled to recover benefits anyway.

KEEP OUT THE HIGHLY SKILLED WORKER WHO WILL EARN A GOOD SALARY AND PAY A DECENT AMOUNT IN INCOME AND SS TAXES. SMART. HOW MUCH WILL A "Z" CARD HOLDER EARN... NOT ENOUGHT TO PAY FEDERAL INCOME TAX, THAT IS FOR SURE. WITH THE EARNED INCOME CREDITS, CHILD TAX CREDIT ETC, THE FEDS WILL HAVE TO SEND THEM A CHECK!!!!!!!!!

How much will a ?z? visa holder earn? Your statement/question implies that a ?z? visa will not earn a high wage. Why is that so? There are illegal immigrants that make decent money. Not all live below the poverty level. And why should they?

You attempt to distinguish ?illegals? as not paying their FIT. Their money is deducted from their paychecks the same as everyone elses. If they make below a certain amount, they will receive some of that money back. This is no different than John Q. Citizen. In fact, look at most recent college-graduate?s tax return. Most students just graduating from college don?t make a great deal, and are eligible for those same tax credits.

AM I NUTS OR WHAT???? THIS IS WHAT OUR PRESIDENT AND LAWMAKERS IN DC CONSIDER A GREAT PLAN. AM I MISSING SOMETHING?

Your story doesnt include anything about actual people. My challenge to you is this. Research or, better yet, go out and talk to families that have fought/are fighting the immigration battle. Talk to those who have immigrated legally and those who have done so illegally. Their stories will help you to understand why your one-sided approach is unworkable and unrealistic. What separates you from any one born in Mexico City is that you were born in the States.

What happened to: Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore, Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

PS: Am I wrong to assume that those statistics in your signature line come from Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR)? FAIR is a group that has accepted contributions from the Pioneer Fund. I am not going to debate the Pioneer funds questionable reputation, you all can do the research on that. Nonetheless, the Pioneer fund has been noted by the decidedly conservative Wall Street Journal as being ?a white supremacist outfit devoted to racial purity through eugenics.? Maybe FAIR isn?t the best place to get statistics. Just my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
LI to...

Intelligent but flawed response.
Check the stats.
The bottom line, they are criminals. Our country is based on OBEYING THE LAWS.
Why should I welcome families exceeding two or three dozen people. What do they have to offer this country? Four grandparents, umpteen uncles, aunts, first cousins. DO THE MATH.

I am tired of supporting this element. For the most part they take and give nothing in return.. Why should I pay to educate these illegals?????? Why should I pay for there handouts: food stamps, or Debit Cards. Go to Meat Farms or Compare Foods on the weekend and stand at the checkout counter and watch AND LEARN.

Most of all I am tired of listening to liberal whiners like you!

I am earning a great salary, but can't afford these handouts anymore.

Mike, your right. Jan 07. But.....like you said, how are you going to find out when they came in??????? Ask them. Reality is yesterday.

This post edited by makobob 05:07 PM 05/29/2007
 

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Why should I welcome families exceeding two or three dozen people. What do they have to offer this country? Four grandparents, umpteen uncles, aunts, first cousins. DO THE MATH.
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I was chastised in my first post. People bemoaned my ?tactics.? So let me be clear. I find the above statement insensitive and, in my opinion, borderline racist. Hispanic families (not all immigrant families are Hispanic) are marginally larger than American families. Read: 3.87 people per Hispanic family, while the national average for all families is 3.19 people. These are people, not rabbits or mice as your post suggests. I know that you would never associate with these ?illegals? but you would likely find that border crossing is often cost prohibitive and extremely dangerous.

What do they have to offer this country? It seems that only a fringe group, in which I am assuming you are included, think that immigrants have little to nothing to contribute to this country. Immigrants and those who were forced to immigrate have literally built this country. And continue to do so.

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I am tired of supporting this element.
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Element? People. You are tired of supporting these fathers, mothers and children. You are entitled to feel the way that you do, but still, they are humans.

For the most part they take and give nothing in return.. Why should I pay to educate these illegals?????? Why should I pay for there handouts: food stamps, or Debit Cards. Go to Meat Farms or Compare Foods on the weekend and stand at the checkout counter and watch AND LEARN.

Makobob, when you go to MeatFarms and Compare Foods on the weekend, and you stand in line, how do you spot an illegal? How can you tell who amongst those using Foodstamps/independence cards are illegal? Or, do you have the ability to perceive how long a person has been receiving said ?handouts?? Can you tell when someone has also received a governmental grant for educational businesses, or to start a small business?
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Most of all I am tired of listening to liberal whiners like you!
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Hmmm. You assume my politics. Lets just assume I am a liberal. It seems that I have conservative company in my support of this plan. (I would like to modify this plan, but for the sake of argument, I will support it). It is, after all, supported by GWB. If that doesn?t count as conservative, I don?t know what is. Seems it isn?t only liberal whiners.
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I am earning a great salary, but can't afford these handouts anymore.
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This rhetoric reminds me of a debate with James Gilchrist. Might I suggest a donation to the Minutemen. Maybe we should even sanction their actions.
 

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Something else to consider:

What happens when an American citizen marries a non-citizen?

On the whole the non-citizen automaticaly becomes a citizen (more or less, the paper work is just a formality). Same with any children they have outside the U.S.

So.....

We've heard there are 12 million illegals who would suddenly become legal citizens. If those 12 million are married now or get married after becoming legal thier spouses automatically citizens. So that's 24 million people. Then if they have children, lets say 2 kids on average, that's potentially 48 million+ new people in one fell swoop!
 

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Mathematics

Jaiem wrote:
Something else to consider:

What happens when an American citizen marries a non-citizen?

On the whole the non-citizen automaticaly becomes a citizen (more or less, the paper work is just a formality). Same with any children they have outside the U.S.

So.....

We've heard there are 12 million illegals who would suddenly become legal citizens. If those 12 million are married now or get married after becoming legal thier spouses automatically citizens. So that's 24 million people. Then if they have children, lets say 2 kids on average, that's potentially 48 million+ new people in one fell swoop!


I get your point, you think the numbers are really a persuasive reason. If the minutemen were better at their jobs, maybe we wouldnt have this problem. They are definitely seeking donations.

But lets talk about your math. Lets assume there are 12 million immigrants. We will also assume they would "suddenly" become legal citizens (which they wouldnt). Well, to reach your 48 million number, every one of those 12 million would have to be of the marrying age and would also marry someone from another country, in essence bringing them here. This would make sense in a "birds of a feather stick together" world, but that isnt the case. Also, each of those couples would have to reproduce. Unlikely.

These alarmist numbers are just that, alarmist. The financial woes experienced by many are surely not at the hand of the "masses" of illegals that are "flooding" into the country and instantly having "seed" babies. Rather, its do to extravagant living and irresponsibility.
 

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makobob said:
Intelligent but flawed response.

The bottom line, they are criminals. Our country is based on OBEYING THE LAWS.

/quote]

Thats funny I thought this country was based on stealing the land from the people living here before we arrived then killing as many as we could as fast as we could. I guess we were "OBEYING THE LAWS" since we wrote the laws. Did we bother to ask the Indians what their immigration policy was?
 

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Casinos and Reservations

Larry, we gave the native Americans reservations. Which amount to about 2.3% of the total land in the United States? What more could they want? Hey, ?we? even gave them casinos.

Nevermind the fact that the quality of life on those reservations is among the poorest to be found in the United States and is comparable to a developing country. Cf. Pine Ridge Indian Reservation.

They remind me of another group of people who claim to have been wronged by ?our forefathers.? Nevermind that statistics show that 37% of people attend college nationally. For Native Americans this statistic plummets to 17%, lower than any other ethnic or racial group in America. Nationally, 45% of all people have at least a bachelor?s degree. For Native Americans this statistic once again plummets to 15%, also lower than any other ethnic or racial group in America today.

We are a people who OBEY LAWS and make good on any injustices that occur. Ha. That?s laughable.
 

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LongIslandtoMD wrote:

I get your point, you think the numbers are really a persuasive reason. If the minutemen were better at their jobs, maybe we wouldnt have this problem. They are definitely seeking donations.

If the laws on the books were being enforced there would be no need for Minutemen.

quote:
Lets assume there are 12 million immigrants. We will also assume they would "suddenly" become legal citizens (which they wouldnt).

Yes, they would. Any pretense of application, fees/fines, documentation etc. is just that - pretense. The moment someone says they don't have the documentation, can't pay the fees/fines will they be deported? Unlikely. Exception will be come the norm. It's a blank check for citizenship. Let's not hide behind legal-sleeze words and circular reasoning. The end result will be tens of millions (at the least) legalized people with in a very short period of time.

quote:
Well, to reach your 48 million number, every one of those 12 million would have to be of the marrying age and would also marry someone from another country, in essence bringing them here.

a) I don't see too many 6-7 y/o's from Mexico coming over the border on thier own. All are of legal age to marry (meaning mid to late teens and older).

b) They don't have to get married abroad. If they are citizens here and they have a wife back in Mexico or wherever that's good enough.

quote:
Also, each of those couples would have to reproduce. Unlikely.

Very likely. At the risk of being a stereotype, Mexicans are known for large families at young ages.

And isn't that the state reason why they come here in droves illegally? To find gainful work to support thier growing families back home?

quote:
These alarmist numbers are just that, alarmist. The financial woes experienced by many are surely not at the hand of the "masses" of illegals that are "flooding" into the country and instantly having "seed" babies. Rather, its do to extravagant living and irresponsibility.

Yea. Ok.
 

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One additional question. Lets assume that, like it or not, this bill passes and becomes law. what's going to stop it from happening all over again? Do you realy belive that they will stop illegla immigration this time, when they didn't even try in the last 20 years since the last amnesty?
 

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The whole thing is a joke in my opinion.

My favorite part, is where they have to return to their place of origin, after they declare that they are here illegally. Then they wait for the papers, that allow them to return legally? Get real!!
 
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