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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/south_of_scotland/7258378.stm
Fine them $1MM not this foolishness of a few thousand bucks.
Fine them $1MM not this foolishness of a few thousand bucks.
Here's how you stop illegal fishing
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Here's Why!
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"Judge David Wood told Nicholson that a message had to be sent out to people in the fishing industry that breaking the rules would not be tolerated and would be met with large penalties."
All it would take to stop illegal fishing around here is a little enforcement and a few large fines levied against the offenders, including as they do in some states, Take away the offenders boat and fishing gear until he appears in court to face a angry Judge as above............YEA!
no more "slap on the hand".....Fine 'em and Jail 'em
Toutog
All it would take to stop illegal fishing around here is a little enforcement and a few large fines levied against the offenders, including as they do in some states, Take away the offenders boat and fishing gear until he appears in court to face a angry Judge as above............YEA!
no more "slap on the hand".....Fine 'em and Jail 'em
Toutog
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Now why dont they do that around here
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IT'S TIME TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT THIS ISSUE
$4.3 million April 1997 for over 300 violations
3.4 million March 2005
$240,000 June 2004
$280,000 April 2006
$750,000 August 2006 over 230 pounds of prohibited shark species
Fines are getting lighter and convictions lagging.
Though, for sure, this is not a comprehensive list of fines it definitely shows a pattern of light enforcement. The fines are way to light. A fine in 1997 of 4.3 million (that was a pretty serious fine) compared to a fine of just 750,000 in 2006. The 2006 incident had a fish dealer saying that he didn't know that certain shark fins were prohibited. BS. $750,000 is a joke and Agger treated it as such. They should have yanked his license for good. WEAK ENFORCEMENT!
The problem does exist. The real problem is enforcement. A big fine to one fish processing company or fisherman every 2 or three years is "token" effort at best. They really need to address enforcement.
Do a sweep, and nail a majority of the players (recreational and commercial) that participate in poaching and facilitating poaching. Advertise the convictions to the public to show that enforcement is being stepped up and the consequences are real. The fines will finance the resources for big investigations easily.
Convictions of Offenders should include permanent loss of license (fishing or selling), forfeiture of ALL equipment used to catch or sell fish including boats, transporting vehicles, storage devices (refrigerators) etc. Another fund raising opportunity for enforcement would be the sale of the equipment.
What a sad state of affairs.
LooneyTunes
Dave
$4.3 million April 1997 for over 300 violations
3.4 million March 2005
$240,000 June 2004
$280,000 April 2006
$750,000 August 2006 over 230 pounds of prohibited shark species
Fines are getting lighter and convictions lagging.
Though, for sure, this is not a comprehensive list of fines it definitely shows a pattern of light enforcement. The fines are way to light. A fine in 1997 of 4.3 million (that was a pretty serious fine) compared to a fine of just 750,000 in 2006. The 2006 incident had a fish dealer saying that he didn't know that certain shark fins were prohibited. BS. $750,000 is a joke and Agger treated it as such. They should have yanked his license for good. WEAK ENFORCEMENT!
The problem does exist. The real problem is enforcement. A big fine to one fish processing company or fisherman every 2 or three years is "token" effort at best. They really need to address enforcement.
Do a sweep, and nail a majority of the players (recreational and commercial) that participate in poaching and facilitating poaching. Advertise the convictions to the public to show that enforcement is being stepped up and the consequences are real. The fines will finance the resources for big investigations easily.
Convictions of Offenders should include permanent loss of license (fishing or selling), forfeiture of ALL equipment used to catch or sell fish including boats, transporting vehicles, storage devices (refrigerators) etc. Another fund raising opportunity for enforcement would be the sale of the equipment.
What a sad state of affairs.
LooneyTunes
Dave
LT -
I posted those links in response to the notion that fisheries fines were trivial. I don't have the foggiest idea whether fines are getting larger or smaller, and I suspect you don't either.
As far as what you suggest, those levels of participation penalties aren't inflicted on any other professions that I know off (what does it take to get a lawyer disbarred, an MD to lose his license?) and aren't even that confiscatory for drug dealers.
Fisheries penalties seem to be in line with pollution penalties, but if you are (your corp. is)found guilty of pollution, you pay the fine, and that's all, unless their are other charges. Why should fishing infractions be different?
This post edited by NilsS 10:57 AM 02/23/2008
I posted those links in response to the notion that fisheries fines were trivial. I don't have the foggiest idea whether fines are getting larger or smaller, and I suspect you don't either.
As far as what you suggest, those levels of participation penalties aren't inflicted on any other professions that I know off (what does it take to get a lawyer disbarred, an MD to lose his license?) and aren't even that confiscatory for drug dealers.
Fisheries penalties seem to be in line with pollution penalties, but if you are (your corp. is)found guilty of pollution, you pay the fine, and that's all, unless their are other charges. Why should fishing infractions be different?
This post edited by NilsS 10:57 AM 02/23/2008
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What do we suppose speeding fines should be increased to, to at least LIMIT excessive speed? Or should vehicles be confiscated fro thirty miles over the limit? Speeding isnt so bad, though, right? How's about drunk driving, which has a hand in the deaths of fifty thousand Americans each year?
Truly excessive fines, except for the most severe offenses, would never fly. Besides, most people that break the law, especially fisheries laws, do not expect to be caught. W/o enforcement, no fine schedule will be effective. By the time enforcement becomes effective, there will be no need for high penalties, because the violations will subside. People don't speed on a road whent they can see a cop. Unless they know he doesn't care.
Paul
Truly excessive fines, except for the most severe offenses, would never fly. Besides, most people that break the law, especially fisheries laws, do not expect to be caught. W/o enforcement, no fine schedule will be effective. By the time enforcement becomes effective, there will be no need for high penalties, because the violations will subside. People don't speed on a road whent they can see a cop. Unless they know he doesn't care.
Paul
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67,033 Posts
LooneyTunes wrote:
$4.3 million April 1997 for over 300 violations
3.4 million March 2005
$240,000 June 2004
$280,000 April 2006
$750,000 August 2006 over 230 pounds of prohibited shark species
Fines are getting lighter and convictions lagging.
Though, for sure, this is not a comprehensive list of fines it definitely shows a pattern of light enforcement. The fines are way to light. A fine in 1997 of 4.3 million (that was a pretty serious fine) compared to a fine of just 750,000 in 2006. The 2006 incident had a fish dealer saying that he didn't know that certain shark fins were prohibited. BS. $750,000 is a joke and Agger treated it as such. They should have yanked his license for good. WEAK ENFORCEMENT!
The problem does exist. The real problem is enforcement. A big fine to one fish processing company or fisherman every 2 or three years is "token" effort at best. They really need to address enforcement.
Do a sweep, and nail a majority of the players (recreational and commercial) that participate in poaching and facilitating poaching. Advertise the convictions to the public to show that enforcement is being stepped up and the consequences are real. The fines will finance the resources for big investigations easily.
Convictions of Offenders should include permanent loss of license (fishing or selling), forfeiture of ALL equipment used to catch or sell fish including boats, transporting vehicles, storage devices (refrigerators) etc. Another fund raising opportunity for enforcement would be the sale of the equipment.
What a sad state of affairs.
LooneyTunes
Dave
If they did that for recreational fishermen you would hear a hue and a cry that would truly be remarkable. Can you imagine the headlines when a 50 foot viking gets confiscated for having a 18 inch fluke on board? How about the NY times reaction when the guys fishing off the docks in Brooklyn start having their cars confiscated?
How's this for a novel idea, make the crimes commensurate with the offense and the amount of profit one realizes from the offense. The got got fined for the sharks probably had one fish on board, is that worth $650,000?
$4.3 million April 1997 for over 300 violations
3.4 million March 2005
$240,000 June 2004
$280,000 April 2006
$750,000 August 2006 over 230 pounds of prohibited shark species
Fines are getting lighter and convictions lagging.
Though, for sure, this is not a comprehensive list of fines it definitely shows a pattern of light enforcement. The fines are way to light. A fine in 1997 of 4.3 million (that was a pretty serious fine) compared to a fine of just 750,000 in 2006. The 2006 incident had a fish dealer saying that he didn't know that certain shark fins were prohibited. BS. $750,000 is a joke and Agger treated it as such. They should have yanked his license for good. WEAK ENFORCEMENT!
The problem does exist. The real problem is enforcement. A big fine to one fish processing company or fisherman every 2 or three years is "token" effort at best. They really need to address enforcement.
Do a sweep, and nail a majority of the players (recreational and commercial) that participate in poaching and facilitating poaching. Advertise the convictions to the public to show that enforcement is being stepped up and the consequences are real. The fines will finance the resources for big investigations easily.
Convictions of Offenders should include permanent loss of license (fishing or selling), forfeiture of ALL equipment used to catch or sell fish including boats, transporting vehicles, storage devices (refrigerators) etc. Another fund raising opportunity for enforcement would be the sale of the equipment.
What a sad state of affairs.
LooneyTunes
Dave
If they did that for recreational fishermen you would hear a hue and a cry that would truly be remarkable. Can you imagine the headlines when a 50 foot viking gets confiscated for having a 18 inch fluke on board? How about the NY times reaction when the guys fishing off the docks in Brooklyn start having their cars confiscated?
How's this for a novel idea, make the crimes commensurate with the offense and the amount of profit one realizes from the offense. The got got fined for the sharks probably had one fish on board, is that worth $650,000?
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And let's all remember, it's the guys breaking laws that are causing all the trouble, whether it's a good law or not. The recreational fishermen who is simply having fun, drifting in the bay, hoo-and-releasing eighty or one-hundred-fifty fluke, one or two keepers, is not harming the resource at all. He can't be, because it is legal. besides, he's just one guy, a couple of fish, and only out for a good time. It's those guys out trying to make a living who are beding rules that are really the ones that need to be taken out.
Paul
Paul
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947 Posts
Agreed, fines have to be weighted to the crime. That said, a guy who gets bagged multiple times for the same small infraction should be burned so severely that he will never do it again. Just because he's pushing a 50' Viking doesn't give him slack. The violation is the same as a guy in an inner tube.
As far as speeding goes, guy has 19 DUI's & still driving. Suspended, but still driving. Apparently, his previuos punishments didn't phase him.
And, I don't know, someone may be able to ass more color, I have a gut feeling that these things go in front of a judge who knows squat and gives it the "big deal a couple of little fishys" and moves on to bigger things. Do these cases go before some knowledgeable person or Judge Judy?
This post edited by rastamon 11:38 AM 02/23/2008
As far as speeding goes, guy has 19 DUI's & still driving. Suspended, but still driving. Apparently, his previuos punishments didn't phase him.
And, I don't know, someone may be able to ass more color, I have a gut feeling that these things go in front of a judge who knows squat and gives it the "big deal a couple of little fishys" and moves on to bigger things. Do these cases go before some knowledgeable person or Judge Judy?
This post edited by rastamon 11:38 AM 02/23/2008
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538 Posts
Fines are big all over
Nils,
You certainly highlighted that the fines are trivial.
I beg to differ regarding fines being imposed on professions. Have you ever had a DEC guy break your shoes because he didn't see your DEC permit for laying down fertilizer even though you had the permit. One infraction $10,000 fine plus the $45,000 vehicle gets confiscated. Or how about the restaurant. You get fined $5k because the dumpster was within 25 feet of the kitchen. Even though the kitchen in inside and the dumpster is outside.
Fisheries penalties are way too light. The Aggerman guy basically laughed about the $750,000 fine and said discuss it with my lawyer. Let's see he was caught with $80,000 worth of illegal shark fins not to mention 750 pounds of other shark fins. Gee I wonder why he was completely unphased by the fine.
The fines are monsterous in various industries, especially where the EPA is involved.
Fisheries are under extraordinary pressure to prevent overfishing, habitat destruction, conservation etc. There is no excuse for possessing prohibited shark fins. Fines need to be severe to make in unprofitable to risk getting caught.
Fish fines should be different. A recreational fisherman gets fined $200 for a small clam or $240 for a short striper. Think about it. The fish dealer has sold thousands of illegal fish. Figure each illegal fish at $240 and it won't take long to come up to some large numbers. The only problem is a fish dealer will never tell you how many illegal fish they have sold.
The IRS has a way of dealing with cash businesses. It's called an assessment. They send an agent to your cash business for a day to observe receipts for the day. They take that days receipts, stick it in a formula and you get a bill from the IRS for 30K because they chose to visit your business on a peek day and base their yearly assessment on your busy Friday.
I think everybody commercial and recreational will agree, A whopper fine would be a major detractant to willfully disregard the laws. So why not make sure the fines are stiff. You and anybody else is welcome to check my catch anytime you want. You will NEVER find a short or illegal fish on my boat. If you do (which you won't), I deserve as large a fine as the law allows.
LooneyTunes
Dave
Nils,
You certainly highlighted that the fines are trivial.
I beg to differ regarding fines being imposed on professions. Have you ever had a DEC guy break your shoes because he didn't see your DEC permit for laying down fertilizer even though you had the permit. One infraction $10,000 fine plus the $45,000 vehicle gets confiscated. Or how about the restaurant. You get fined $5k because the dumpster was within 25 feet of the kitchen. Even though the kitchen in inside and the dumpster is outside.
Fisheries penalties are way too light. The Aggerman guy basically laughed about the $750,000 fine and said discuss it with my lawyer. Let's see he was caught with $80,000 worth of illegal shark fins not to mention 750 pounds of other shark fins. Gee I wonder why he was completely unphased by the fine.
The fines are monsterous in various industries, especially where the EPA is involved.
Fisheries are under extraordinary pressure to prevent overfishing, habitat destruction, conservation etc. There is no excuse for possessing prohibited shark fins. Fines need to be severe to make in unprofitable to risk getting caught.
Fish fines should be different. A recreational fisherman gets fined $200 for a small clam or $240 for a short striper. Think about it. The fish dealer has sold thousands of illegal fish. Figure each illegal fish at $240 and it won't take long to come up to some large numbers. The only problem is a fish dealer will never tell you how many illegal fish they have sold.
The IRS has a way of dealing with cash businesses. It's called an assessment. They send an agent to your cash business for a day to observe receipts for the day. They take that days receipts, stick it in a formula and you get a bill from the IRS for 30K because they chose to visit your business on a peek day and base their yearly assessment on your busy Friday.
I think everybody commercial and recreational will agree, A whopper fine would be a major detractant to willfully disregard the laws. So why not make sure the fines are stiff. You and anybody else is welcome to check my catch anytime you want. You will NEVER find a short or illegal fish on my boat. If you do (which you won't), I deserve as large a fine as the law allows.
LooneyTunes
Dave
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CaptPaul wrote:
And let's all remember, it's the guys breaking laws that are causing all the trouble, whether it's a good law or not. The recreational fishermen who is simply having fun, drifting in the bay, hoo-and-releasing eighty or one-hundred-fifty fluke, one or two keepers, is not harming the resource at all. He can't be, because it is legal. besides, he's just one guy, a couple of fish, and only out for a good time. It's those guys out trying to make a living who are beding rules that are really the ones that need to be taken out.
Paul
CaptPaul,
Why would you go there when you know that more fluke are killed and NOT COUNTED by commercial draggers. I am sure pin hookers don't catch a keeper on every line even though at 14" it's not too tough to get a keeper most times.
Looneytunes
Dave
And let's all remember, it's the guys breaking laws that are causing all the trouble, whether it's a good law or not. The recreational fishermen who is simply having fun, drifting in the bay, hoo-and-releasing eighty or one-hundred-fifty fluke, one or two keepers, is not harming the resource at all. He can't be, because it is legal. besides, he's just one guy, a couple of fish, and only out for a good time. It's those guys out trying to make a living who are beding rules that are really the ones that need to be taken out.
Paul
CaptPaul,
Why would you go there when you know that more fluke are killed and NOT COUNTED by commercial draggers. I am sure pin hookers don't catch a keeper on every line even though at 14" it's not too tough to get a keeper most times.
Looneytunes
Dave
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538 Posts
What's good for the goose is good for the gander
MakoMike wrote:
If they did that for recreational fishermen you would hear a hue and a cry that would truly be remarkable. Can you imagine the headlines when a 50 foot viking gets confiscated for having a 18 inch fluke on board? How about the NY times reaction when the guys fishing off the docks in Brooklyn start having their cars confiscated?
How's this for a novel idea, make the crimes commensurate with the offense and the amount of profit one realizes from the offense. The got got fined for the sharks probably had one fish on board, is that worth $650,000?
Life's a B, Don't do the crime if you can't pay the fine. Like I said, it would be a major disincentive to do something as stupid as break the rule. I don't care if you are in a row boat or a 50 foot viking. You get caught, don't cry when they take your boat. VERY SIMPLE.
I am sure the rule on your charter boat is: ANY fish that the law contitutes as illegal will not be allowed to be kept on your boat. Surely, you don't say, It's an illegal fish but it's the customers call to keep it. You are being responsible as anybody who fishes has the same ethical obligation.
LooneyTunes
Dave
LooneyTunes
Dave
This post edited by LooneyTunes 12:01 PM 02/23/2008
MakoMike wrote:
If they did that for recreational fishermen you would hear a hue and a cry that would truly be remarkable. Can you imagine the headlines when a 50 foot viking gets confiscated for having a 18 inch fluke on board? How about the NY times reaction when the guys fishing off the docks in Brooklyn start having their cars confiscated?
How's this for a novel idea, make the crimes commensurate with the offense and the amount of profit one realizes from the offense. The got got fined for the sharks probably had one fish on board, is that worth $650,000?
Life's a B, Don't do the crime if you can't pay the fine. Like I said, it would be a major disincentive to do something as stupid as break the rule. I don't care if you are in a row boat or a 50 foot viking. You get caught, don't cry when they take your boat. VERY SIMPLE.
I am sure the rule on your charter boat is: ANY fish that the law contitutes as illegal will not be allowed to be kept on your boat. Surely, you don't say, It's an illegal fish but it's the customers call to keep it. You are being responsible as anybody who fishes has the same ethical obligation.
LooneyTunes
Dave
LooneyTunes
Dave
This post edited by LooneyTunes 12:01 PM 02/23/2008
fine commesurate with the offense makes sense to me. 45 cabo, one short shark, one out of season fish....dont see confiscating anything on that, for a first offense. pinhooker in a 19' skiff...10 short fish.....again first offense im not confiscating anything. i think penalties should graduate rapidly with the second and subsequent offenses. just like traffic infractions.
looneytunes,
a question please
mid june, your favorite fluke drifting spot in the bay. two boats, 23 parker with a dad and his two sons aged 7 and 10 drifting standard fluke squid spearing combos. other boat 23 carolina skiff with three pinhookers. its a great bite that day, bottom is covered with them. all reguations are followed to a tee on both boats. which boat does more damage to the fishery and at what gain over four hours?
looneytunes,
a question please
mid june, your favorite fluke drifting spot in the bay. two boats, 23 parker with a dad and his two sons aged 7 and 10 drifting standard fluke squid spearing combos. other boat 23 carolina skiff with three pinhookers. its a great bite that day, bottom is covered with them. all reguations are followed to a tee on both boats. which boat does more damage to the fishery and at what gain over four hours?
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All things being equal
gebby wrote:
looneytunes,
a question please
mid june, your favorite fluke drifting spot in the bay. two boats, 23 parker with a dad and his two sons aged 7 and 10 drifting standard fluke squid spearing combos. other boat 23 carolina skiff with three pinhookers. its a great bite that day, bottom is covered with them. all reguations are followed to a tee on both boats. which boat does more damage to the fishery and at what gain over four hours?
I don't know, I think you forgot about the commercial draggers in your one sided equation. Pinhookers are part to the commercial fishery as are draggers.
Now back to the topic. Fines should be severe. Graduating fines only encourage infractions till you get caught. Then after you get caught you start obeying the law. WRONG!
Think about it. The guy with the 40+ Cabo can afford to blow off the fine just like the fish dealer Aggerman, but the smaller boat guy won't be able to. This is why it has to be severe from first infraction.
LooneyTunes
Dave
This post edited by LooneyTunes 12:30 PM 02/23/2008
gebby wrote:
looneytunes,
a question please
mid june, your favorite fluke drifting spot in the bay. two boats, 23 parker with a dad and his two sons aged 7 and 10 drifting standard fluke squid spearing combos. other boat 23 carolina skiff with three pinhookers. its a great bite that day, bottom is covered with them. all reguations are followed to a tee on both boats. which boat does more damage to the fishery and at what gain over four hours?
I don't know, I think you forgot about the commercial draggers in your one sided equation. Pinhookers are part to the commercial fishery as are draggers.
Now back to the topic. Fines should be severe. Graduating fines only encourage infractions till you get caught. Then after you get caught you start obeying the law. WRONG!
Think about it. The guy with the 40+ Cabo can afford to blow off the fine just like the fish dealer Aggerman, but the smaller boat guy won't be able to. This is why it has to be severe from first infraction.
LooneyTunes
Dave
This post edited by LooneyTunes 12:30 PM 02/23/2008
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195 Posts
Other States.....
Try "Poaching" fish or animals in other states.
1) they take your equipment,guns,rifles,cars,trucks,boats, etc.
Anything that the Fish and Game Warden deems as being used in the commission of the CRIME!
2) the Judge or Magistrate makes you pay dearly.
Most other states don't have a "Poaching" problem!
Why, because they take this seriously and view it as a CRIME!
And then make you PAY DEARLY!
No questions asked if you are caught........you're Guilty!
Try "Poaching" fish or animals in other states.
1) they take your equipment,guns,rifles,cars,trucks,boats, etc.
Anything that the Fish and Game Warden deems as being used in the commission of the CRIME!
2) the Judge or Magistrate makes you pay dearly.
Most other states don't have a "Poaching" problem!
Why, because they take this seriously and view it as a CRIME!
And then make you PAY DEARLY!
No questions asked if you are caught........you're Guilty!
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