[SinkerBouncer]

A few weekends ago, I was drifting for fluke off the Larchmont breakwater with a friend onboard. We noticed a large sailboat (45? or so) coming straight at us from the Southeast. It was under full sail and had at least a dozen crewmembers on board. My partner voiced his concern, but I told him that they would see that we were drifting (after all we were in the ****pit, nowhere near the helm of my 25? stern-drive) and they would alter their course. They continued to bear down on us until they were within 50 feet of us and the ?captain? leaned out and spread his hands wide while yelling ?W A A A A A T C H!!!?
I jumped to the wheel, started my engine, and banged into reverse as the boat slid past a few feet away from my bow. As he went past I held my hands wide and screamed, ?what does this mean?? He yelled back ?it means I?m trying to cross the finish line.? I yelled back ?it means you?re an A$$-H0LE!? His crew smiled sheepishly at us as they went by.
A buddy of mine had a similar experience while drifting in the same spot on the following weekend. He wound up blowing an air horn and yelling to get the skipper to veer off.
The point is to warn other fisherman that sail boaters seem to think that they ALWAYS have the right of way. They expect you to get out of their way even if you?re drifting along and nowhere near the controls. In the Western Sound, where blow-boats are thick during the summer, they are the biggest hazard to navigation around. I?d prefer to deal with a tug and it?s tow any day to an oncoming sailboat. At least a tugboat Captain knows the rules of the road!

 

[sakroc]

I think I've seen this discussed here somewhat before, and I believe it was voiced that a boat under sail power does in fact have the right of way.

I do understand your frustration, especially when the sailers are arrogant types to boot.

 

[614668]

I fish the Western Sound a lot and just feel compelled to relay this quick story. I usually rent skiffs from Jacks at CI. If anyone is familiar with the them, you are aware that there is a little marina with some dockage before you get to the main channel/sound. Well one of the customers gets on the boat and opens the throttle on the small 6 horse engine. He throws a wake and all the boaters who are leisurely standing on their boats docked in their moorings get tossed around. They all start yelling and cussing. I had to laugh as it is probably the only payback that us guys in small skiffs with kids get at the big boys who merciless throw wakes in our direction and don't have the courtesy to slow down even for a second. As for the sailboats, I thought one was firing a cannon at me when I was 20 yards off the port side. I only realized a few minutes later that the cannon was the starting gun for one of those regattas/races. My instinct was to hurt the prankster but it was no prank at all. niuoiworcilk

 

[seaslug44]

Can anyone share the rules of the road when it comes to racing events?

Are permits and fair warning required?

What are the obligations of other boats in the area?

 

[GoodnightMoon]

I wish I had my copy of Chapman's Piloting - I lent it out last week.... I think the fishing vessel had the right of way over the sailboat ???

 

[GoodnightMoon]

I found this on a Sailing Safety Website: http://www.sailingusa.info/sailing_safety.htm
Sailboats are the give-way-vessel under the following conditions: A sailboat is overtaking any other kind of vessel. When another boat is confined by a narrow channel, is confined by draft, is not under command, has reduced maneuverability such as if engaged in towing (not powerboats with water skiers with good maneuverability) or is a fishing vessel engaged in commercial fishing.

A sailboat is the give-way-vessel when approaching personal watercraft such as a canoe or kayak. However, jet skis are considered the same as a motorized vessel and are the give-way-vessel unless the sailboat is overtaking them.

 

[GoodnightMoon]

From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 2, 2001]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between
January 2, 2001 and January 28, 2002]
[CITE: 33USC2018]

TITLE 33--NAVIGATION AND NAVIGABLE WATERS

CHAPTER 34--INLAND NAVIGATIONAL RULES

SUBCHAPTER I--RULES

Part B--Steering and Sailing Rules

subpart ii--conduct of vessels in sight of one another

Sec. 2018. Responsibilities between vessels (Rule 18)

Except where Rules 9, 10, and 13 otherwise require:

(a) Power-driven vessels underway

A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing; and
(iv) a sailing vessel.

(b) Sailing vessels underway

A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command;
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver; and
(iii) a vessel engaged in fishing.

(c) Vessels engaged in fishing when underway

A vessel engaged in fishing when underway shall, so far as possible,
keep out of the way of:
(i) a vessel not under command; and
(ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver.

 

[sullystone]

not all sailors are jerks

I am both a sailor and a fisherman. I have a cruising sailboat and a steiger craft, and I fish extensively off both. There is no way a sailboat has right of way over any drifting or stationary boat not under power,fishing or not. In the sailing community , there are jerks and good guys , just like the fishing community. The guy you encountered is typical of the "racing" crowd, a bunch even other sailors dont care for. Its too bad jerks taint an entire catagory of boaters, no different than if the fishermen who keep shorts, litter, or abuse booze on the water were considered representative of all fisherman. jerks are jerks .

 

[MBill]

Sullystone,
Don't want to incite too much of an argument here (I fish and sail also) but a sail boat does have the right of way over a boat that's drifting. Note that I didn't say fishing. Under the rules of the road rod&reel fishing doesn't count as a fishing vessel. The drifting boat is underway (not at anchor)/ not making way. The assumption is that you can start the engine.
I guess that the real point is that there are too many inconsiderate people, especially in the crowded areas.

 

[SinkerBouncer]

The 61st edition of Chapman Piloting, chapter 6 states, "a sailboat may also be the give-way boat... if the powerboat is a vessel restricted in its ability to maneuver." (Rule 18(b)).
It should be obvious that a drifting (or anchored) vessel cannot maneuver.
What infuriated me was that there were at least a dozen pairs of eyes on the offending sailboat and no one was able to prevail on the skipper to alter his course. Couldn?t someone shout out to watch for the drifting boat?
Of course, Sullystone's point is well taken; many sail boaters are knowledgeable and courteous. I don?t want to point the finger at all of them, just the Bozos who think that, because they are under sail ALL other boats must get out of their way!

 

[seaslug44]

Thanks for the great info. What I was looking for was someone to provide us with any info about the rules of the road as they apply to a racing event.

In the Western Sound, racing courses are often established with buoys and judge boats. If it was a powerboat race, it would be obvious that we should keep as far away as possible and that the organizers would send fair warning. But even with a sailing competition, shouldn't there be permits and safety precautions taken?

Some of my best Western Sound wrecks are often located right in the middle of these sailing events. Nobody ever hails me on the radio or comes over and asks me to relocate. I find myself moving only because of how dangerous it becomes.

Surerly there are some sort of rules.

 

[baywatch]

Sailing Vessels

This has nothing to do with the sound but rather a narrow channel.
I was returning from a day of fishing and on my way back in from Moriches I had to go through Bellport Bay. Apperntly a regatta was underway and the club had red amrkers out for the sailors to run, moslty sunfish. The problem was that this channel has little margin for error. If you go outside the buoys you are high and dry, and they had the racing markers in the channel and pilot boats watching for trouble. I was waived off by one of the pilot boats but did not move because of my "Restrcition of avaiablity to manuver." You had to here the guy in 1 pilot boat, he thought he owned the channel. All this for sunfish.

Needless to say we had some words and I was ready to put an 8 oz sinker through his windshield but cooler heads prevailed and I kept on going.

This is why I think blow boats have such a bad rep because they think they can do whatever they want once that sail is up. If they can learn all the rules about sailing and what is in there favor they should put in the equal amount of time learning what they CAN NOT do.

Need some feed back on this one.

Bill

 

[MakoMike]

Doc,
I could be wrong but I don't think the rules of the road change, just because a bunch of guys decides to have a sailboat race. The pwer boat races have to get C.G. permission to close off part of the water to normal navigation. I think the big regattas also do the same, like the Americas cup, when it used be sailed off Newport. But these smaller clubs and long distance races, like the around block island event have to follow the normal rules of the road.

 

[MBill]

There is a lot of confusion among fishermen as to the status of our boats when we're out fishing in relation to the rules of the road.
We ARE NOT
fishing vessels
or restricted in ability to manuever (regardless of the width of a channel)

We are power boats under way even when drifting with the engine(s) off.

 

[621848]

Rather then bicker....I sent a note to the coast guard asking them about this exact situation. I will post their response when I get it.

Regardless of who is the stand down vessel, it the obligation of both boats to avoid the collision. Just because you have "right of way" as it's put, does in no way release you from your obligation of operating your boat in a safe manner. You are ALWAYS responsible for any damage your boat causes, be it by wake or other means. PERIOD. Even if you have "right of way", if you have the ability to avoid the accident, and choose not to you are at least partially at fault.

 

[GoodnightMoon]

Some useful definitions

Rule 3

General definitions

For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

(e) The word "seaplane" includes any aircraft designed to maneuver on the water .

(f) The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to:

(i) a vessel engaged in laying, servicing or picking up a navigation mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) a vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) a vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) a vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) a vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi) a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.

(h) The term " vessel constrained by her draught" means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draught in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

(i) The word "underway" means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground.

(j) The words "length" and "breadth" of a vessel mean her length overall and greatest breadth.

(k) Vessels shall be deemed to be in sight of one another only when one can be observed visually from the other.

(l) The term " restricted visibility" means any condition in which visibility is restricted by fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorms, sandstorms or any other similar causes.

-------------------

Unfortunately, it looks like the sailboat did have the right of way, however it does not appear that the captain acted prudently to avoid a collision, which he was duty-bound to do irrespective of who had the right of way. In any event, he was certainly discourteous.

I still cannot find the answer to the question that doctorfish poses regarding rules during a race. One would assume that the Rules of Navigation would apply, but perhaps there is a different set of guidelines for such an event.

I look forward to rodbuster's response from the CG.

If I find anything of interest, I'll post it.

Sure wish this weather would break!

 

[SinkerBouncer]

More from Chapman's

I appreciate everyone?s comments pro or con concerning this situation. I agree that common sense dictates that every boater should take evasive maneuvers regardless if he is at fault, to avoid a collision.
I would like to add that there was no apparent racing going on off of Larchmont on that day. No one should set up and drift in the middle of a sailboat race. There were no racing buoys set out off the Larchmont breakwater. There was no apparent sailboat race taking place because the offending sailboat was alone; no other sailboats were even close. My guess is that the sailors were racing against a stopwatch and the end of the breakwater was the finish line.
I went back to Chapman Piloting Chapter 6, Rules of the Road, page 124:
Under the heading: Sail?s right of way over power:
?Generally, a sailboat has the right of way over a powerboat?. However, there are exceptions. Take, for example, a sailboat overtaking a powerboat. Here, the overtaking rule prevails over the usual right of way for sail. Thus, the sailboat (give-way-vessel) must keep out of the way of the powerboat (stand-on-vessel).?
On page 124 under the Heading: Overtaking:
?If you are closing in on another vessel from more than 22.5 degrees abaft that vessel?s beam, then you?re overtaking it. An overtaking vessel must always keep clear of a vessel being overtaken. The overtaking vessel is the give-way vessel; the overtaken vessel is the stand-on vessel (Rule13(a)).? There is more on page 126:
?An overtaking vessel remains an overtaking vessel for the duration of any encounter with another vessel. Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel, or relieve it of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until it is finally past and clear.?
Have a great weekend, everyone. I?ll be back here on Tuesday to see where this thread goes. I too will try and get the Coast Guard to weigh in on this right of way issue.

 

[Scratcher]

I'm a sailor and fisherman. I race in Bellport Bay. The "sunfish" encountered by Bill were actually Optis and it was the Jr. Nationals with racers from around the country (our future America's Cup skippers). I would imagine that the patrol boat was exercised because there were 180+ boats in the vicinity, all sailed by children. Common sense dictates that a powerboat encountering those conditions either slows WAY down, or alters course to avoid the fleet. Wind conditions and the space needed for an event with 180+ boats dictated that the area of the bay near the channel be used. It was great that the event was held in New York, and a thanks should be given to all powerboaters who may have been inconvenienced.

The channel, where it runs east/west through Bellport Bay is not that restrictive - there is 6' of depth from about mid-bay (the edge of the flats) to the northern shore of Bellport Bay, a space about a mile and a half wide.

The previous poster who said there are jerks in motor boats and jerks in sailboats was right. Racing brings out the competiveness in us all, and sailors are not immune. We race Monday and Thursday evenings in Bellport Bay, and have for over thirty years. There are no special permits required that I know of. If a fishing boat were to set up near the starting line, or near one of the buoys, he would have sailboats all around him. Based on the original post I believe that SinkerBouncer may have been drifting near the finish line, or near a racing mark without realizing it. The fact that the sailor yelled "WATCH" makes me think he was (ineffectively) trying to let the powerboater know he was near the finish line.

Another point, and I am not recommending to anyone that they should not take evasive action, is that sailors in racing situations are very used to maneuvering big boats within inches of one another at decent (for sailboats) speeds. A sailboat in a race would likely shave closely by a motorboat if the motorboat were in the path to the finish line. Especially if it was a close race. Personally, when powerboating I enjoy the sight of sailboats and believe they add something to being on the water. When faced with of choice of passing in front of or astern of one I always pass astern, the wake has less effect that way, and if the boat is in a race it actually helps them on their way.

Hope this helps.

Blowboater and Stinkpot Operator

 

[baywatch]

Markers in the channel

I remember That they had racing markers in the channel. I have seen pleanty of boats run a ground there and weather or not they are future America Cup Skippers or not those markers, in my opinion had no business in the channel. I have seen Sayville races where they stay off the channel and away from The Davis Park and Watch hill Bouys. Granted your space was more confined but still to have patrol boats waving people,out of a marked channel is out of hand.
I will always give the right of way to a S/B and give them the courtesy of passing behind them, but this was NONSENCE and took a lot of nerve and seemed to be taking advantage of the situation of having all the boats under sail at one time. With that many boats they should of ran Heats and let the fianlist of a group of 30 or so race for a big finish.

Sorry guy call em the way I see em.

Bill

 

[baywatch]

Room for all?

If what you said was true about having pleanty of room why when I moved did my alarms go off for low water?