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I've heard mention that ethanol may be added to Diesel fuel in the future. Does anyone know if this is a real possibility? I have heard
of vegetable oil being added to Diesel fuel as well.
Rick
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Mike, Hope you're right about that - I have a friend building a new boat, and he is concerned he may be making a mistake installing fiberglass tanks. It would certainly cause tremendous problems if
it comes to pass.
 

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There is an E-Diesel that contains five to ten percent ethanol. It also requires significant amounts of additives to prevent separation and promote full burn. There is a decent loss of power(I think ten percent), but it may be the only way for road diesels (and subsequently marine diesels)to meet future EPA emmission requirements, since research and development don't seem to be making the necessary progress. I feel the only thing slowing down its introduction is the availability of ethanol.

Paul
 

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I don't see Ethanol being added to diesel fuel, plus as most tanks are aluminum in moderate sized boats I there should be no issues.

The talk about vegetable oil added to diesel can come in a variety of forms. Diesel engines that run on B20, burn a mix of 20 % biodiesel (veggie oil) and 80% petroluem based fuel, B10 means 10% bio fuel base and 90% petro base, etc.

That said, diesels can run on striaght Biodiesel, i.e veggie oil, but there needs to be a slight conversion to that fuel system in colder climates. The fuel is very low viscosity, so the engine needs to be started with standard diesel, and as it and the veggie fuel is warmed up , the then switched over to the veggie oil.

Incidentally I was surprised to find out the veggie oil is actually better for engine longevity then standard diesel, particularly with the new ultra low sulfer diesel becoming mainstream.

There is a guy I hear of down south somewhere running his boats engine (Cummins diesel) on used cooking oil from restuarants! lol I guess he can't complain of fuel prices !
 

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Veggie oil is being used in some generator applications. As for use in vehichles, it all depends on a number of factors. How much is being used in the blend is important - if its 10 % no biggie.

But before it can be used it needs to go through a process. If using alot of veggie oil (more than 25%), your fuel lines will need to be replaced.

This comes from a friend that works with it every day.
 

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GradySailfish wrote:

I don't see Ethanol being added to diesel fuel, plus as most tanks are aluminum in moderate sized boats I there should be no issues.

The talk about vegetable oil added to diesel can come in a variety of forms. Diesel engines that run on B20, burn a mix of 20 % biodiesel (veggie oil) and 80% petroluem based fuel, B10 means 10% bio fuel base and 90% petro base, etc.

That said, diesels can run on striaght Biodiesel, i.e veggie oil, but there needs to be a slight conversion to that fuel system in colder climates. The fuel is very low viscosity, so the engine needs to be started with standard diesel, and as it and the veggie fuel is warmed up , the then switched over to the veggie oil.

Incidentally I was surprised to find out the veggie oil is actually better for engine longevity then standard diesel, particularly with the new ultra low sulfer diesel becoming mainstream.

There is a guy I hear of down south somewhere running his boats engine (Cummins diesel) on used cooking oil from restuarants! lol I guess he can't complain of fuel prices !






I know my company switched to bio diesel and they didnt do any modifications to the fuel or engine system I do notice that the trucks smoke a **** of allot less when you first start them up in the cold then when we used regular diesel fuel
 

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There are limitless combinations and variations to the use of vegetable oil in diesel engines. I know of boats around here that use refined veggie oil cut w/ 40% to 60% diesel in standard two strokes.

If the ethanol was being added to diesel, I beleive it would have to be labeled as such. MBTE was less than three percent, but there were labels everywhere for that. You would also see a whole lot more crud washing out of older tanks into filters. One last thing- Using ethanol as an additive to diesel will bring along a new set of safety considerations, to varying degrees in different industries, but rest assured, the higher flammability of the e-diesel will see some new laws along w/ its introduction. In relation to gasoline, ethanol is less flammable, but it is much more flammable than diesel.

Both alternative types of fuel should be closely monitored when used, though. They have a tendacy to effect the non-metallic parts of the newer engines, eroding plastics and swelling seals.

Paul
 

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Biodiesel Modifications

A new diesel engine ( about 8 yrs old and newer) can run any mix of biodiesel that it wants. Diesel engines were originally designed to run on peanut oil, and have never really lost their roots, so to speak. The problems that one will encounter with biodiesel are

1) Biodiesel has a much higher solvent property than petroleum diesel. That said, when you first begin to use biodiesel, keep EXTRA fuel filters on hand, as it will scrub your system cleaner than ever before, and all of that nonsense will end up in your filters. In addition, this solvent property will eat away at natural rubber slowly. This is a problem of older diesel engines, and the conversion is to take all the rubber hosing off and replace it with newer synthetic replacements.

2) Gelling of the fuel will occur at a higher temperature, sometimes above freezing if you are running a high concentration of biodiesel or straight veggie oil. To combat this you will have to place additives into the fuel. If you are running a straight veggie setup, you may have to place a heating element in the fuel to make it less viscous and get the oil moving quicker.

There are biodiesel kits that you can get that will allow you to "Brew" your own fuel in your garage, and some are even fully automatic, producing up to 25 gallons a day from waste veggie oil or friolator oil. Pretty slick. Be sure to check on your warranty status when using biodiesel, as most companies will only recommend 5-20% mixes.

Ryan
 

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Bio-diesel

Pretty interesting stuff.
One believe though, that biodiesel needs to be warm before it will burn, so the crank-case must be warm to begin with?? Al grover jr. was telling me about this. To fix the problem i believe you either need a separate primer tank of straight diesel, or you ned to mix the diesel.
--Not positive on any of this though...
 

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clementine wrote:
Pretty interesting stuff.
One believe though, that biodiesel needs to be warm before it will burn, so the crank-case must be warm to begin with?? Al grover jr. was telling me about this. To fix the problem i believe you either need a separate primer tank of straight diesel, or you ned to mix the diesel.
--Not positive on any of this though...

That's what I have read about it as well.
 

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biodiesel vs. straight vegetable oil (SVO)

I'm no expert, but thought this might help some people...

Biodiesel is not vegetable oil, it's a fuel made from vegetable oil.

There's lots of info available on the 'net on biodiesel and vegetable oil, if you feel like doing a little research. Veggie oil is usually referred to as SVO (straight vegetable oil).

A diesel engine can burn either, but both require some mods, for biodiesel PTJudeRI's post is accurate as far as I know, and for running SVO, I think much more extensive mods are required, especially to provide a system to heat the fuel in the tank and the fuel lines to liquify the veggie oil and prevent it from coagulating on it's way to the engine.

Anyway, like I said, I'm no expert, I just wanted to the make the point that Biodiesel and SVO are two different things, and that there's plenty of info available on both on the 'net, so if you are interested, hit google and read up.
 

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Biodiesel has real diesel in it. Home brewers use whatever percentage that they find runs best in their application. For colder weather, you can add more diesel. There are also many additives to contro flow, burn temperature, etc. Straight veggie is completely different.

Paul
 

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CaptPaul wrote:
Biodiesel has real diesel in it. Home brewers use whatever percentage that they find runs best in their application. For colder weather, you can add more diesel. There are also many additives to contro flow, burn temperature, etc. Straight veggie is completely different.

Paul

I too will through in the "I'm no expert" clause.

I have been doing a lot of research on bio-diesel because I have been toying with setting it up for my work truck.

As it has been said, svo is one fuel source bio-diesel is another. bio-diesel is created from veg oil though a chemical process involving methanol and lye which changes the molecular structure to diesel.

Bio-diesel does not need to have petroleum diesel in it. A diesel engine can run with no ill effect on pure bio-diesel created from veg oil. However, I don't believe you will be able to purchase pure bio-diesel, it is usually less then 50% more like 10%to20% as grady stated.

As far as gelling problems, bio-diesel does have a significantly higher gelling point which anti-gelling additives can help but not cure. If using in cold weather they recommend no more then 15%-20% bio-diesel with petroleum diesel. Further more, if you are using bio-diesel made from used oil that may have animal fat content this may increase the gelling point even further, also the presence of animal fat will not respond to anti-gelling additives.

Under normal contditions bio-diesel does not require pre-heating to burn, I belive this may be the case with SVO, but I am not sure.

PtJudeRI was on the money with engine mod, its more of a maitenence issue then mod.

Assuming you obtain used veg oil for free, it is estimated that the cost to produce your own bio-diesel is $1 /gal. and its not that complicated. I'm seriously considering it.
 

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I have heard that the Newport Launches run a % of biodiesel in their boats throughout the summer. I have been toying with the idea of trying it for marine use ( I have tried it in my Jetta TDI) but Im hesitant to pull the trigger....Its one thing for my car to crap out on the highway, but another for my power to die out when Im fishing offshore or in snotty weather. It is rather tempting though. It does present some nice alternatives, economically and environmentally.

Ryan
 

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clementine wrote:
Pretty interesting stuff.
One believe though, that biodiesel needs to be warm before it will burn, so the crank-case must be warm to begin with?? Al grover jr. was telling me about this. To fix the problem i believe you either need a separate primer tank of straight diesel, or you ned to mix the diesel.
--Not positive on any of this though...


Our work trucks we just get in and start them cold and no problems and no modifications were done
 
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