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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Som,e of you New England folks might want to respond to the editor about this.

Nils
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Portland Press Herald - Editorial

Dogfish, dogfish everywhere, but not enough to catch

Fishermen have reasons to dislike them, but the species shouldn't be allowed to vanish.

April 10, 2008

? Can a species of fish be simultaneously too abundant and not plentiful enough?

That seems to be the problem with the dogfish, a small shark that is giving fishermen fits because, they say, it is crowding out the commercially valuable groundfish their livelihood relies upon.

Federal regulators and conservationists, on the other hand, say the species, once plentiful enough to be a productive resource itself, has not yet fully recovered from overfishing in the 1990s and needs continued protection.

The issue has become contentious because groundfishermen are hauling in more dogfish than cod and have to throw them back as bycatch instead of being able to sell them.

Even worse, they say, is the little shark's diet, which is partly composed of valuable species such as juvenile cod, hake and haddock, as well as smaller fish such as herring and mackerel those species eat.

But federal officials say dogfish still aren't plentiful enough to catch. There used to be a market for the fish in England, where it was popular as the aquatic half of a fish-and-chips lunch.

However, fishermen concentrated on catching females, which run 3 to 4 feet long and are larger than males, because they were more profitable.

That led to a decline in reproduction, producing a ban on commercial fishing and strict limits on bycatch.

While fishermen point to an increasing abundance of fish, regulators say the population has seven males for every female. That represents the grown males that are the survivors of the overfishing of females a decade ago. Officials say restrictions can't be lifted until the ratio becomes more equal.

That makes sense, even if it is hard on some commercial species and those who fish for them.

Copyright © 2008 Blethen Maine Newspapers
 

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If that is really the issue why doesn't NMFS/NOAA allow the boats to only land 600 pounds of females and an unlimited amount of males? I'm sure those clever fishermen will quickly figure out how to catch the males without catching the females.
 

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Theoretically speaking (I'm sorry...I don't speak theoretical
)

With a handful of video cameras it would be possible to show that the ratio of males to females actually being caught by....say partyboats in any given area for example....is not even close to the supposed 7 to 1 male to female ratio the gov't claims.

If...theoretically...... the vast majority of fish being caught inshore and offshore, new england to hatteras.... on board again, for example, partyboats are indeed females...or even just a larger percentage that 1/7....... it could throw a monkey wrench into the gov't numbers.

Last time I checked males do not spit out puppies when they hit the deck or are not carrying pups when they are cleaned if they are cleaned....theoretically.

Question is, if that "theory" were true, would showing 10,000 fish were caught when there was supposedly only 10,000 fish left (make-believe numbers) would NMFS then say "I guess there are actually more than 10,000 fish out there!"

or.....

Would they say "HOLY SH*T!!! You just caught all the dogfish!!" and then shut everything down?

Unfortunately I believe the latter is likely when it comes to NMFS.

The following was only a "theory" or a "possible scenario." I am in no way trying to imply that the headboats catch and kill significant numbners of dogfish or that the number of females is larger than NMFS claims, meaning too many are being caught....

Theoretically speaking of course.

This post edited by CaptTB 11:23 AM 04/10/2008
 

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Well, since CaptTB covered the theoretical part of the discussion, allow me to speak metaphorically. And metaphorically speaking, NMFS had successfully compressed their dogfish population data into a greasy suppository of epic failure, and is now engaged in vigorously jamming it up our collective asses with the preverbial table leg. I think I just coughed up a metaphorical splinter. Is there anything that will make them quit doing that? Saying things like "please stop, you're hurting me!" only seems to encourage them further, so asking nicely has proven to be counter productive. Do they have to get sued for aggrovated sexual assault on the fisheries they are supposed to manage? If so, then who's going to file it?
 

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FishWisher wrote:
Do they have to get sued for aggrovated sexual assault on the fisheries they are supposed to manage? If so, then who's going to file it?

I dunno. I guess you can get a group together and get one of those online petition going. Then you can get more people together and hold "Kill the dog fish" meetings while raising money to hire a lawyer. All of course to prove the science is wrong.

If you are going to do that you might 1st want to find and read the assessment and the science advice before you go through all of the trouble. Your aim will be not only to refute the current peer reviewed science, but come up with scientifically justifiable and defensible reasons why you think the dogfish population is just danndy. Because of course the best scientific information has to be used, and if they don't have it, you need to provide it and get it past a peer review committee. Unless, of course, you want to change the law that requires scientific evidence; in which case you can tie that into the fluke/flexiblity bill currently in congress

And you might also recognize that you will have to get in line after the other groups suing NMFS over whales, lobsters, fluke, plovers, seals, winter flounder, groundfish, sectors, monitoring of TACs, and anything else people are unhappy about.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
or we could get Magnuson amended...

to put some judgment back into the management system, Saints preserve us!

The antis have already started their campaign to prevent that.

It's a political situation with a political solution. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

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I and my peers get our dogfish servey data when we are out on the water, trying to catch something else. Which makes that data "anecdotal" rather than "scientific", doesn't it? So, basically, all the people unhappy with the best avaliable science vis-vis the dogfish abundance have to go get their own science. Which, of course, costs money, and that money would not be made back even in the event of full legal victory. Hm... Maybe UNH can get a grant to do this? Shouldn't take more than a couple of tows.
 

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NilsS wrote:
to put some judgment back into the management system, Saints preserve us!

The antis have already started their campaign to prevent that.

It's a political situation with a political solution. Nothing more, nothing less.


Sure and that really is what's going to be required for both fluke and dogfish; a change in the law that governs how we manage fisheries. From the current system that requires accountability, "hard" timelines for rebuilding, sustainable fish (but not fishermen) practices and science based management to.... something else...
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Guest -

We could have all you listed, and we could sustain fishermen as well, without have the SFA rigidity that is turning fisheries management into a nightmare for so many fishermen. Fisheries don't have to be "rebuilt" according to an inflexible timeline. We can in good conscience trade off a couple of years of rebuilding time for sustaining fishing communities, we can have effective science-based management that isn't based entirely on inadequate data and overly-sophisticated (and un-ground truthed and un-ground truthable) computer modeling and allows for reliable on-the-water observations. We could probably have it all, and still have a coastline with intact commercial and recreational industries. And we sure don't need dogfish and thorny skates and barndoor skates and every other critter that there's a fishery for at MSY levels, regardless of either the impossibility of doing so or the ecological ramifications if we do.

We could even have a "let's try this for three or four years, see what happens, and then adjust what we do" system without destroying the oceans or the fish in them. It isn't rocket science, and it isn't ever going to be because we don't know enough and we never will. That's why the need for judgment, and we've lost it.
 

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sure. We could design a fishery management system where stakeholder representatives balance the needs of the fish and fishing communities as well as economic/social concerns. Where the science acts in an advisory role after passing some sort of peer review to make sure it's the best possible yet available. Where allocations are both fair an equitable but ultimately up to stakeholders representatives to decide based on the fisheries current need. And where flexibility is a keystone in how we manage

But it requires a pretty serious change in the law to do so. And if anything there is more will to go in the opposite direction.
 
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