[619627]

Over the last couple of days in Sheepshead Bay, the DEC, our state FISH & GAME conservation police, have been conducting random checks on all party boats in the Bay, along with their customers. I just happened to meet one of the members from the board down the Bay this afternoon, and he was pretty surprised at the amount of DEC officers along the docks. I of course was not, since i have heard from a number of captains and people, concerning what had happened the previous days. He did not know that for the last few days the DEC has HEAVILY summonsed both the party boat owners and customers for such infractions as:

1)Having fileted or MUTILATED their catch consisting of Sea Bass and Porgies.....

2)Tossing fish off the party boat while coming in.....

3)Party Boat captains for failing to obey a lawful order from a DEC agent to stop their vessels while entering Sheepshead Bay...

4)Party Boat owners for selling LOCALLY CAUGHT fish onboard their vessels.

Others summonses were given out for the standard offenses of:

1)Keeping undersized fish...

2)Over State bag limits on perscribed species....

Now we know that the last 2 offenses listed are widely known to those who fish reguarly, and when upon fishing a party boat, are usually posted somewhere on the boat, and a announcement made by the captain. Even those who fish infrequently should understand, that these laws must be followed, or they are liable to be summonsed. Ok, we understand that.

What we do not understand is how the DEC gave out summonses for the first four offenses i listed, and NO ONE HAS EVER HEARD OF THESE LAWS BEFORE! A number of customers were given summonses to the amount of over 60 for one person (instead of writing one summons listing 60 or whatever amount of violations). Over the VHF radio today many of the captains were talking about a woman who was going to get a summons and did not have identification and was placed in handcuffs....other stories ranged from DEC agents pulling out their weapons on party boat customers, total lack of respect for customers property as they searched their tackle bags, chasing customers who got of the boat and were walking to their cars, long delays in allowing customers to leave the party boat while other customers were being searched, and most of all, just plain unprofessional HEAVY HANDINESS in the way they conducted their 'sweep' among the party boats that came in at the end of the days fishing. I personally witnessed a customer being searched on the OCEAN EAGLE, who then walked up the stairs and was stopped by another DEC officer, who proceeded to open up his cooler and start tearing open a dark plastic bag, while he had a clear bag which contained his fish in it! The Lieutenant on the scene yelled at the officer for doing this, but many customers and people who visit the boats in the bay, were taken aback by the way this 'search' was being conducted, on a passenger who told this officer that he had already been searched.

Going back to the first four violations that i listed, the first two are something that EVERYONE who has fished a party boat has done...we have cleaned our catch, and tossed the remainder of the fish overboard. The remaining two violations concerning the party boat owners and the captains, are EXTREMELY nonsensical...First Party Boat owners in their lease with the City Docks Department, are allowed to sell their catch...the captains have Food Fish licenses which also allow them to sell their locally caught catch. And issuing a summons to a party boat captain who is bringing his boat into Sheepshead Bay for failure to obey a lawful order from a DEC agent shouting over a loudspeaker, while the party boat captain is in the wheelhouse, goes against all logical thinking. These captains were trying to navigate into the Bay, and cannot safely stop their vessel right in the narrow channel, during the busiest time of the boating day.

This has not been a banner year for the party boat owners in Sheepshead Bay. Attracting first time customers and keeping regular customers satisfied, has been extremely hard, as witnessed by the light crowds on many party boats. Customers walking off party boats after a long day, expect to get off the boat, and get into their cars to go home. It was very unexpected for the DEC to come into the Bay with at least a dozen officers the last few days and conduct themselves like they were involved in a narcotics sweep. Not one person down in Sheepshead Bay has said anything good about these events over the last few days.

Enforcement of our fishery laws has now become a neccessary evil. Many of our fishery laws are not too partical and need adjusting as far as bag limits, size limits and seasonal openings and closing, but thats for another topic to be discussed over the winter. Fish have become a valuable resource, and heavy pressure has been put on all our fish stocks. Their is a way for FISH AND GAME law enforcement officers to conduct themselves, so that both the party owners and customers will comply with the fishery laws. What has gone on in Sheepshead Bay over the last few days, has done just the opposite, and has left the party boat owners and customers with a US vs THEM mentality when dealing with the DEC. Hopefully in the future, the DEC will clarify the law concerning the cutting of fish on the boats, and act in a more courteous and professional manner when dealing with the fishing public.

EC NEWELL MAN>>>>>

 

[Hunt n' Fish]

EC Newell Man,

I realize you said you saw some of this taking place, but are you sure you know all of the facts in this case as far as the licsences of the boats and the stop order that was given, and the filleting and tossing of fish. If this is what you are being TOLD by the captains and/or customers, you might take that with a grain of salt. I know that it is not beyond the realm of possibilities for a law agency to behave like this but there are usually three sides to every story. I have never had or heard of experiences like that taking place out here in Region 1.

Party boats are lawfully allowed to fillet some fish species while at sea, maybe porgies and seabass are not some of those that can be.

Some party boats, one that I know of recently by me, allow their liscences to expire and neglect to renew them, and that may be what happened in the case of the guy fined for selling fish. An agreement to sell fish with the city does not absolve someone from obtaining and/or maintaining the appropriate state liscences.

Maybe, while attempting to stop the party boat, the DEC agents observed customers tossing fish. That is illegal. That law has to be in place, otherwise every time someone keeping illegal fish saw the DEC coming they would be able to dump them and not have any evidence.

Where in the inlet was the DEC attempting to stop the boat? I see the officers checking boats in FI inlet all the time and it is never done in an dangerous manner.

I am sure that if any of these violations have been issued inappropriately the courts will throw them out. It would be unfortunate if someone was wrongly ticketed and had to take the time to go to court over it. It would also be a shame if the officers were behaving as poorly as you describe, but from what I have read in the posted reports over the last year alone, there is a problem in that area that needs to be addressed. Maybe the comments you are hearing are coming from those that have been doing wrong and are slightly skewed.

Chris

 

[614512]

~~~~~

Sounds like they need bigger guns in their pants. Or maybe they are exercizing some new attitudes concerning their power (or increase in their power). You never know when you'll find a terrorist who likes to fish. Our civil liberties are being eroded faster than Dune Road.

Is the CG gonna chase fisherman away from the bridges for security reasons next?

Maybe the agency is just buckling down its own way of operating. Maybe they are just trying to make a much needed statement, but aren't talking clearly?

If a DEC guy pulled a gun on me, something which I would never give a reason for him/her to do, I'm sure I'd get a ticket for four letter word noise pollution.

...mocean

 

[614347]

DEC Region 2 usually gets green ECO's, fresh out of the academy. They mean well, but sometimes have more zeal than information.
I remember a few years back when the new ECO's started ticketing anyone playing C&R with the schoolies in early April. (NY regs permit C&R out of season on Stripers). Nothing would convince them.

When you said the Lieutenant yelled at the ECO for the second search, it sure sounded like zeal to me!

The dumping routine is not a new one either. I remember a roadblock on the Montauk Hiway, where fishermen were grilled on what they did with the rack (of an obviously legal fish). The correct answer is: "I wrapped it and threw it in the dumpster".
Cleaning a fish and throwing it's guts/skin into the waters of a harbor can be considered illegal dumping. The harbor/bay has a limited amount of such material it can "digest". any more and it starts to smell. Like a bunker kill. Out at sea is a different matter. I think it's more of a matter of "where" than anything else.
These standards were NEVER enforced in Brooklyn, but they certainly have seen the light of day, in the not-so distant past.

Flounder.

 

[619627]

MORE QUESTIONS THEN ANSWERS>>>>

Hello Chris....i work in law enforcement on the water, and have a understanding on how to act when i pull a vessel over and talk to the occupants.
Now having this background, i would consider other law enforcement agents to conduct themselves in a similar manner. What i saw leaves much to be desired of. And i am not the only way feeling this way.

A 'grain of salt' when someone tells a story should always be considered. I agree!~ First i know a few of these captains personally. Second, i was there to witness the events today from start to finish. Third, i listened for the last couple days over the VHF, NY Bight Party Boat captains talking about the manner in which the DEC conducted themselves. There is such a outrage, that they are now considering purchasing video cameras to film these events when the DEC comes down to the dock. This has risen to the highest 'fevor pitch' i have seen from these captains who have weathered many tough issues in the past.

Regarding the Commercial Food Fish license to sell fish, this was not the issue. The City in a lease agreement with the party boat owners, specifically states that they CAN sell fish that is caught aboard their vessels. What gives, the owners having a official document that allows them to conduct this transaction, or the law as being enforced by the DEC? As a matter of fact, their was some question from the DEC in Sheepshead Bay about selling fish on the boats the last couple of days. These party boat owners all have a Food Fish license issued by the state, thus are allowed to sell fish.
Again, this was not a issue of a party boat captain neglecting to renew his Food Fish license. It would be pretty senseless since they are in the business making a living for this, unlike many other part time commercial fishermen who have Food Fish licenses and sell their catch to a wholesaler.

The fileting of fish at sea, has been going on as long as, and since the days of wooden vessels running out of Sheepshead Bay since the 1800s. Fluke and weakfish are notable since both these fish have regulations concerning mutilation of these speices...people who filet fluke at sea, must keep the rack available with the filets. Weakfish fileted at sea fall into 3 categories i believe, with one of them being a weakfish filet being a given minimum length. There has NEVER BEEN any regulations posted on sea bass or porgies not being allowed to be mutilated at sea. If a person cuts off the head and tail of a legal sized porgy he is left with about 5 inches of fish...but where do you cut from the head and tail to give you at least a minimum of 5 inches!!!!! The customers are layman, thus cannot be expected to take exact measurements on where to make these cuts on their fish.

Again, the tossing and disposal of fish at sea takes into account, the dumping of fish wheather undersized, out of season, or over limit. Unless the DEC recovers the fish that is dumped by a customer, who is to say it fell into one of the 3 above conditions? Couldn't of this been a cleaned fish, a rack, or skin..could this of been someone feeding a seagull? Could this of been a sea perch, sea robin, or some other fish which has no restrictions on being kept? This becomes so vague that a court will most likely throw this out. But why go through all this trouble, tying up resources in our already strained court system, for people suppossedly dumping fish overboard. With terrorism concerns, being the highest priority for law enforcement, wouldn't it make sense to have as many law enforcement officers out in the field instead of in court all day?

Now the incidents' of party boat captains being issued citations for FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH A LAWFUL ORDER, happens to be one of the most troubling issues. Lets set the stage. A party boat captain is now proceeding off of Kingsboro College in the narrow channel with a shoal to the west in front of the college and the shallow waters of Plum Beach to the east. This is 3 oclock in the afternoon which is considered the peak in boat traffic in the area around Sheepshead Bay with both small and large vessels coming in and out of the Bay. You have a party boat captain in a wheelhouse, with noise from various VHF radios, diesel engines, and other banter, taking up his attention. You also have a small DEC 'asset' chasing from BEHIND, yelling over a loud speaker to 'STOP'. Now at this location, where? And Why? Is this a situation that requires IMMMEDIATE and IMMENT compliance? Is this a safety or medical issue that require this type of action by the party boat captain? And, aren't their other ways to contact a vessel by the DEC such as using their own VHF and hailing the specific vessel over VHF CHANNEL 16? Is this appropriate police action in this instance? Wouldn't hailing a vessel over the Marine radio be more professional, safer and appropriate when checking for possible fishery violations?

Possibilites always exsist when the public comes into contact with law enforcement officers. The law abiding public, which many of us are, when caught off guard by law enforcement, may not act appropriately, but it does not make certain types of behavior criminal. Detaining people for long periods of time, conducting searches on property that are as intrusive as drug searches at say, airports, and police stations, are inappropriate in this SETTING and for these CIRCUMSTANCES. Numerous courts from the Supreme Court to numerous lesser courts have ruled on searchs such as this, concerning the length of detainment of a person, the manner in which a search is conducted, and on what can be searched. Yes a DEC agent can check a fish cooler, but when they start to open up peoples belongings such as personal bags that people carry with them, and tearing open closed plastic bags, then their is a question of a law enforcement officers judgement....we are talking about fish!
This does not mean that a citzen losses all his rights concerning his property or his movements.

For many, being 'unfairly or inappropriatly ticketed' is not a good excuse. Is it right for a party boat owner, to shut down his businss, hire a lawyer and go to court for the day, for a unfair ticket? Does the aggregrived party, this being the party boat captain and owner, be compensated, for his lost time, wages and expenses by the agency that unfairly or inappropriatly ticketed them? Is this a situation where law enforcement is told to just hand out tickets, and 'let the courts sort it out'?

What happened in Sheepshead Bay with the DEC and the fishing public goes beyond officers acting poorly...its unprofessional, and makes it harder when other law enforcement agencies interact with the public. Again i remind you we are talking about fish...which is food. Drawing of weapons, threats, and, a large group of DEC officers which i counted close to a dozen if not a dozen or more, and not counting the officers on their vessels encircling a party boat and its customers, is extremely menacing. Law enforcement should act when their are complaints from the public concerning something that may be in violation of the law. NO doubt. But i did see what happened, talked to both people and party boat captains about this, and this in plain english, WAS NOT THE WAY TO CONDUCT A OPERATION. Am i questioning their tactics? Let the customers and party boat captains answer that question, who were there the last few days in Sheepshead Bay. The uproar is large on this one. No one feels 'any good' was done by this.

Finally i believe i did notice that some of the officers had lapel collar pins or patches with 2, which must be region 2. I just hope that the DEC would first provide everyone with some clarification of the laws which go beyond size, seasons and bag limits. And you would just like to see better interaction with the DEC and the fishing public. The DEC has a reputation for being heavy handed and what happened down in Sheepshead Bay only reinforces this among the fishing public.

Have a good night Chris.....

EC NEWELL MAN>>>>>

 

[bhm25]

fish police

they must have had a big shake up down at the fish police headquarters because in the last few weeks they have been hitting this area hard.

 

[613098]

Guess I'm in the minority here. For many years, I've seen both the crews and fares on these boats flagrantly breaking the laws. Far as I'm concerned, DEC should stay on their case until they act responsibly. If you don't break the law, you don't get a ticket. What's so hard to understand about that? These lowlives give all decent fishermen a bad name.
Paul

 

[618563]

SEEMS LIKE EXCESSIVE FORCE, POINT WELL TAKEN, BUT THESE PEOPLE DESERVE WHAT THEY GET....IM SURE THESE FARES WERE RUDE AND ARROGANT TO THE OFFICERS MAKING THEM "BUST CHOPS"...NO ONE SHOULD KEEP SHORT OR OVER THE LIMIT FISH...AND IF U BREAK THE LAW, EXPECT TO BE SHAKEN DOWN...SOMETIMES A "YES, SIR OFFICER" GOES A LONG WAY..JUST MY $.02

 

[skatemaster]

"1)Having filleted or MUTILATED their catch consisting of Sea Bass and Porgies....."

If that is illegal, then I don't think that there is a partyboat that isn't breaking the law.

"2)Tossing fish off the party boat while coming in....."

This sounds like an excellent way to piss off the DEC. Whether or not it is legal, it is not advisable. Perhaps those folks observed doing this were the ones targeted for "special attention" by the DEC.

"3)Party Boat captains for failing to obey a lawful order from a DEC agent to stop their vessels while entering Sheepshead Bay..."

There are better ways to handle this. Truly stupid on the part of the DEC. Even if they are allowed to do this, the safety of the public comes first. This is the equivalent of having someone stop in the middle of a highway. Could easily lead to accidents. As long as it didn't, then the better for everyone. Maybe "pull the partyboats over" at some pier controlled by the DEC.

4)Party Boat owners for selling LOCALLY CAUGHT fish onboard their vessels.

It is interesting that this is legal. I always understood that there are a whole different set of rules that apply to commercial vs recreational fishing. In terms of limits, tagging the catch, etc. Operating a retail food establishment must have it's own requirements, if for no other reason than to ensure the safety of the public. If the Sheepshead Bay boats have a special dispensation to do this, I wonder if it has ever been tested in court. I wonder if they will be allowed to do this in the future.

From the extent of the action, it is no surprised that officers from other regions were involved. For 2 reasons. Region 1 doesn't have the manpower. Secondly, if Region 1 has some sort of working arrangement with the local partyboats, maybe Region 2 does not and can be brought in to aggressively enforce the laws, possibly without disrupting the relationship that Region 1 may have. Just speculating here.

 

[B.Attitude]

EC Newell Man,
you mentioned cleaning porgys,I believe the problem might be that they closed the season for porgys for about2 weeks.I seen one or two reports yesterday about porgys,guys better watch out.They don't realize that porgy season is shut down right now.
paulie

 

[skatemaster]

Porgy season

Is not closed for charter/party boats

 

[619627]

I am glad to see some feedback on this topic. Remember to read my post careful since this was not about customers giving the DEC a bad attitude or hardtime. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of people were experiencing this for the first time, and complied without any problems. The party boat captains explained to the customers what to expect when confronted by the DEC.

B Attitude...good question, and again, their was little clarification in the law....the Scup season was shut down right near its peak for RECREATIONAL anglers, not for party boat anglers, due to both party and charter boats being granted a exemption. So you can go on any party or charter boat and keep your limit of 50 scup. Many anglers do not know this and i saw a number of recreational vessels fishing for scup and keeping them.... This is one of the nonsensical rules that is slipped into the fishery regs by New York State Conservation officals...instead of opening the season two weeks later say the first week of July, instead of June, you would have a CLEAR UNDERSTANDING on what is the opening and closing of the season for a particular species. Many in the public do not have access to information that some of us take for granted since we visit tackle shops, go online, or are constantly on the water. I know that for many people cleaning fish on the party boats has to be done because they may not want to bring the mess to their home...they are disposing the refuse of the fish into the ocean where it belongs.

I hope that some of the people who experienced what happened in Sheepshead Bay would post on the board...it would be interesting to see how they felt, and how the captain, mates and customers reacted. AND WE ARE NOT HERE TO BLAST THE DEC. They have a job to do which we understand. But almost everyone i talked to felt that this 'coming down like GANG-BUSTERS' to enforce fishery regs has to be toned down. I know their have been a number of other very notable instances of the DEC interacting with the public (aka the Montauk incident of 2 years ago), but if you guys have dealt with the DEC directly in the past, please post what happened.

EC NEWELL MAN>>>>

 

[613098]

I still think a lot of folks are missing the main point here. A LOT of the boats and fares routinely break the law. Some of the more obscure regs I can understand people being ignorant about. But let's get real, guys. Undersize fish and too many of them are the norm at Sheepshead, not the exception. If I had a penny for every short fluke I saw for sale on a Sheepshead party boat, I'd be doing my fishing from a 40 foot custom Rybovich.
There is just no way to defend guys who do this sort of thing. They make life difficult for the decent, honest captains and their fares.
Paul
Paul

 

[max171]

the dec

this is a topic that really burns me up!
I've heard plenty of stories about officers taking advantage of there power, and have experienced it first hand!I agree mouthing off is no way to treat a law officer, but by no means does that mean sit there and take abuse,
And they do abuse there authority, i know that a law officer should cary a gun, but to draw it at a person who at best is illegaly harvesting fish is abusive, god forbid that gun goes off ,how can a stupid act like that be justified.I had an officer insist that fish another angler left when he saw theofficers where mine because they were right next to mine??? i explained (calmly)that they were not, he became heated and yelling at me! so i got heated ,and told him hmmmm10people get off the boat with a few fish, thats ok,i leave and u tell me these are mine too..do (BADWORD****) you let the offender off the boat already but your so ****ed up in this little sting of yours ,your right hand doesnt know what the lefts doing! Between changing the harvest #'s at will and not educating anglers,and letting there officers run rampad..its easy to see the rec. angler is badword#*#*.
we dont have a chance, let reflect on the changes made in rec fishing in the last ten years... the next ten do not look very promising..i can see it now, any fish thats running will be out of season to the rec angler...jan thru march bluefish season open no limit no size.....april thru june cod and whiting fishing open...no bag no sie limit.....july- aug so on and so on...laugh if you want but there is a degree of truth to my comment..
time to start looking for property in florida..i dont know about you but there is no fun in catch and release for me!

 

[614097]

Just to throw a little light on one aspect of this mess - the tickets the DEC doles out for throwing carcasses or fish overboard, are for "littering." Here's a good one - if you can't keep a short fish, (obviously), how can you throw it back without "littering?"

More later

 

[skatemaster]

I'm not anxious to hammer the partyboats or the DEC. Everyone is just trying to make a living. And any illegal activities are at a scale that makes them a victimless crime. But we are here to discuss, so discuss we shall.

Comments on these regs please.....

Section 13-0344 of the Environmental Conservation Law: "It shall be unlawful for any person who has been requested or signalled to stop by a police officer or peace officer to throw ur dump into the water any fish, shellfish or crustacean, or the contents of any pail, gag, barrel or any container which may be used in the taking or storage of fish, shellfish or crustaceans, or any implements used in the taking of fish, shellfish or crustaceans before such police or peace officer has inspected the same."

State regulations state clearly that:
"It is unlawful to take or possess bluefish, scup, black sea bass, striped bass, summer flounder, tautog, weakfish or winter flounder for commercial purposes on any charter vessel, a party boat or any other vessel while carrying passengers for hire..." 6 CNYRR 40.1 (c)

2 questions.

Were passengers observed dumping fish "after" the boat had been approached by the DEC or "before"?

How does the city's agreement to allow the boats to sell fish supercede state law? Do the city and state have different jurisdictions? It's a vicious circle. Can you legally sell fish that were illegal to possess for sale in the first place?

 

[SEAWOLF]

DEC ENFORCEMENT

Hello all,
I sailed both Thursday and Saturday with Capt. Ed on the Seawolf Party Boat. Thursday,DEC met boat at the dock. Initially,randomly searched passengers,then began to search everyone. They also boarded the boat to ask capt. for paperwork. Four or five people were found to have kept shorts and were ticketed. I found the DEC to not be so much un-professional as I did find them to be un-educated. These guys were green in more ways than one. When I got off the boat,an officer asked me to open my bag. I complied and he asked what kind of fish they were. I said Porgies. He then asked ME,what was the size limit for them. I told him 10 inches. He grabbed a small one,found it to be 10 inches,looked at the rest and told me to go. At this point, I heard a female officer ask a customer if their fish was a Seabass or a Bergall,(it was a Blackfish). These are obviously newbies who don't have a clue.
On Saturday,two customers who were repeatedly warned their fish were small,kept them anyway,and were nailed at the dock. I think they were under the impression they would take the ticket and keep their catch. Oh well,some have to learn the hard way.
Mates are being requested,(asked),by DEC to not clean progies or seabass as this impeeds their ability to enforce size limits. Since it is NOT unlawful to do so,don't have to tell you how well that was received.
Also,the Food Fish liscense is state issued. the lease allowance to sell fish is city issued. As long as the boat has both,the selling of legal size,daily caught fish within the poession limit is perfectly legal as long as it is done at the dock off of the boat.(At least,this is my understanding of the situation).
The lady who was handcuffed and arrested was 69 years old. The story I got is they asked if she had any shorts and she said no,they found some,so they arrested her.
there's a very thin line between enforcement and harassment,a line I feel was definitely stepped over.
If this was field traning for the new officers,they were not properly prepared for it.

SEAWOLF

 

[613098]

I gotta admit that this whole thread has me puzzled. Everybody seems upset about those "nasty DEC guys" having the nerve to actually enforce the law. Nobody seems to care about the many decades of abuse of those laws by both crew and fares of the Sheepshead bay boats. Those fish hogs are in the same class as the draggers who scoop up anything that swims and try to get away with it. Is everyone all that worried about keeping their undersized fish? Maybe I got it wrong, but if I just wanted to get little fillets to eat, I would go to the local fish market. Are there that many folks so anxious to keep 14" fluke or take home forty bluefish?
Maybe I'm just becoming an old fart, but I thought the whole idea of fishing was about enjoying ourselves in a sportsmanlike way. Obviously, a lot of people think it's all about keeping anything they bring up, without any regard for either the law or the future of the sport. Doesn't anyone out there agree with me?
A lot of this thread is kinda like hearing "that **** Highway Patrol guy caught me doing 85 on the Belt Parkway and had the audacity to actually give ME a ticket! The nerve of him! Why, I've been doing 85 there for years and never got a ticket before! I never knew you weren't supposed to do 85. Signs? what signs? It's all the fault of those **** cops!"
Now I'm not out to pick on all party boat captains or their fares, but when you're wrong, why not admit it and take your medicine like a man? Most fares and crew of party boats are decent fishermen who try to do the right thing - just seems that not too many of them are at Sheepshead. Anyway, that's one man's opinion.
Paul

 

[619627]

GETTING A BETTER PICTURE ON WHAT IS GOING ON>>>>

SEAWOLF....great post! Thats what i think we wanted to hear.

I have been busy on the phone all morning talking to a number or fishermen no the subject of fish selling by the party boats. And it seems that it comes down to:

"ANY SALE OF FISH ABOARD A DOCUMENTED VESSEL, MUST ABIDE BY CURRENT FISHERY REGULATIONS SET BY NMFS".

Now since BLACK SEA BASS has been shut down by NMFS, their is no commercial catch or sale allowed...PERIOD. So a party boat selling sea bass would be in violation, notwithstanding both their Food Fish license and their lease agreement with the City.

Second....this goes back a number of years ago when the party boat owners decided they wanted to be placed into the recreational category instead of the commercial category as far fishery regulations. Now it is coming back to haunt them. As Skatemaster posted in his thread:

"A PARTY BOAT OR CHARTER BOAT CARRYING PASSENGERS FOR HIRE, CANNOT COMMERCIALLY FISH FOR THE '8' SPECIES LISTED AT THE SAME TIME".

Now we can see that anytime a party boat leaves the dock, and takes money from people for the purposes of fishing, they must abide by recreational set fishery regulations. This means that mates/pullers, fishing for the boat, cannot exceed whatever the regulations that are set for the recreational sector. The combined catch of all these fishermen fishing for the boat, would exceed recreationally set limits. This is a grey area that needs better clarification, but you cannot be a recreational vessel and a commercial vessel at the same time.

One point Seawolf brought up about selling fish at the dock, is that many years ago the Cities Dock Department, enforced the law where party boats CANNOT SELL FISH ON THE DOCKS IN SHEEPSHEAD BAY...everyone understands this was one of the few laws that were enforced for a number of years. Party boats were allowed to sell their catch, on the boat that it was caught upon.

Skatemaster, i extremely doubt that the Cities agreement with the party boat owners exceeds state law. IT USUALLY NEVER DOES. This is one area where we have conflicting laws. Since fishery regulations are first set by NMFS which is a federal goverment agency, i doubt the party boat owners have a leg to stand on, especially since they have 'boxed' themselves in by classifying themselves as recreational vessels. And you cannot sell illegally possessed or caught fish, even though the boat or person selling them has the legal right, due to their license.

Your other question about dumping fish can be answered pretty straight forward....just the dumping of illegally caught fish makes you in violation of the law. Once a DEC officer makes this observation, he can and probably will ticket you with this violation. And the DEC officer will tell you, when you go to court you can explain it to the judge!

Denmark Paul, you brought up a good point about Sheepshead Bay...yes it has had the reputation among all Long Island fishing ports as being PIRATES COVE. Yes it seens they catch and keep many short fish. Yes it seems they catch over their bag limits. Does every other fishing port on Long Island or New Jersey have people and party boats that this happens upon....sure. But Sheepshead Bay seems to have been the most lax in enforcing fishery regulations. And its not just the captains but the customers too...captains can announce what the regulations are, and have them posted on the boat along with measuring devices to ensure size limit compliance.
It seems that the mates on board are going to have to have greater responsibility in watching and actually going into someones pail/cooler/fish sack and tossing undersize fish overboard. You really hate to 'play cop' when you are running a boat with customers onboard, but now it seems that this HAS TO BE DONE FOR BOTH THE PARTY BOATS AND CUSTOMERS PROTECTION.

One last thing....as Seawolf stated, which is that the DEC officers acted liked they had very poor training, which led to many saying they were acting unprofessional. I think this is one area which should be brought to the attention of DEC officials, that the officers need better people skills when interacting with the public. Nonetheless these officers ARE GIVEN THE RIGHT TO ENFORCE THE LAW. We cannot forget that.

EC NEWELL MAN>>>>

 

[621542]

DEC

I was not there to witness any abuse( which should not be tolerated if it did occur) so I cannot comment on that, what I will say----if capts. mates and customers did not break/abuse the rules (which I did witness for years)we would not be having this post.

Just my 2 cents