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When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building by George Bush.

He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return."

It became very quiet in the room.
 

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what do we get in return?
land? no.
economic resources? yes.

believe me if the US fought wars primarily to "free the oppressed citizens" than we'd have a long list of countries to "liberate". most of africa comnes to mind. however we fight wars for other reasons, and wouldn't touch africa (where people are SERIOUSLY oppressed and brutalized on a scale far beyond the kurds in iraq) with a 13 ft canepole.

my 0.02
 

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Thier argument sounds good, ROSCO - Empire building suggests we get all the benefits of liberation. What actually happens is that the countries we liberate benefit far beyond thier dreams!

You're right though......our primary interest is economical - business & profits.

So is mine, LOL! How about you???
 

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If it weren't for capitalism...

Why is capitalism the bad guy in all of this? It can't be all that bad, we do have thousands sneaking into our coutry everyday right? And some of them actually want to work, not destroy!!! Wow...
 

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The only land we've asked for?

What about all the land we didn't ask for?

Well, let's see here. We have the "colonies". Remember that? Yep, long time ago. Remember them? When we used the American Indians and sent them to poverty, illiteracy and death? Oh yeah, that's right, we gave them casinos. So we must be even.

Hawaii. We took this over for Dole Fruit. Yep, more senseless death.

Cuba. Seems like they couldn't pay their bills and Big Brother United States stepped in to "help" them.

Panama. Once owned by Columbia but it was too important for our economic trade routes so we staged a coup, snagged it, and dug a canal. You wonder why Columbian drug lords have no problem sending their coke up here? It's not just money. There's some spite at work here as well.

The Phillipines. Yep, staged a revolt there too.

Israel. Yeah, they owned this land before. I also owned my cash before I spent it. It's no longer in my possession, ergo, I don't own it anymore. But after World War II, they needed a home so we gave them land that we really didn't own. And what have they done for us lately? Increased tensions with Palestine. Made us Israeli sympathizers to the rest of the muslim world.

Colin Powell is right, we never asked for any land. What we have or had, we took, by force.

Guys, I feel your patriotism but ignoring our past is not patriotism. If you don't learn from your mistakes, you are apt to make the same ones again. A true patriot wants to make his country stronger. To make your country stronger, you MUST acknowledge and accept your weaknesses and wrong-doings. We aren't perfect. Don't think we are.

I love my country more than anyone. Look at the firm roots our country has. Everything we were escaping from when we first started this country. When I hear the words of our beloved constitution and declaration of independence I feel what our fore fathers were doing.

Don't be lead around blindly. This government is for the people and by the people. It is your RIGHT AND DUTY to question what they do. All you are doing is living up to what the Constitution grants us.

I don't think any of us, regardless of our position on the war, wants US soldiers to die. I don't agree with what they are doing (sorta iffy here) but I am thankful that they are brave enough to do it. I love our soldiers. It's the people that don't care either way that are the enemy. If you aren't part of the solution, you are a part of the problem. The only difference between pro and anti-war people is, we both have different modes to get what we want.

If you want to be patriotic and show the world what it truly means to be an american, stand up, speak your mind and let it be heard. That is what America is about.

Peace
 

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god is not perfect...

He made humans. We should have never been put on this earth. Everything was better before we got here. We have no future. We are the lowliest creatures here. We are pathetic. We destroy in no time what took nature thousand of years+ to create. We are like a virus, we infect a host, deplete the resources, kill it, move onto the next host, infect, deplete, & kill & kil & kill. We have absolutely no future here on earth unless there's an "awakening" of the entire species.

We could send a mission to the outer reaches of the solar system and can't even feed ourselves? Can't agree with our neighbors so we resort to violence? When I hear the word "civilization" I have to laugh/cry. We are pathetic. But then again, that's why I stopped talking about this since college. ****, I guess this war has brought it again out again.

When I see the human race, I am ashamed, ashamed, god **** ASHAMED. Let's just get it over with. NUKE 'em all. Let them NUKE us...and let the all mighty god sort it out, the same one who made this mess.

I just hope I'm fishing at the time.
 

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Empire Building

I don't see this action as being related to empire building in anyway. Have we colonoized anyone? You could argue that convincing nations to use a free market economy is a way of colonization. But you could also argue that in most cases these countries are much better off for our "interference".

Sometimes economic opportunity and doing the right thing for humanitarian reasons coincide. Should we just sit back and let the chips fall where they may? The world tried that back in the early part of the 20th century and it got us in a lot of trouble and under the thumb of some terrible people. So in that regard I think we are trying desperately not to let history repeat itself. Unfortunately there seems to be just a handful of nations willing to take the necesaary action while most just seem willing to take a wait and see attitude. Actions get results. Inaction is a serious gamble. I don't like to gamble for such high stakes.

Go Troops!

Ralph
 

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Mako,

Suppose you had 10 dollars and I mugged you. Then I repented and "gave" you your 10 bucks back? Did I really give it back? I had no right to take it in the first place.

But instead of just giving it back, first I converted it into lira, and then to yen. Then I took your $10 dollars in yen and cut a big hole in the middle of it, burned the edges a little bit and drew some dirty pictures on it.

Then I "gave" it back. You don't have 10 dollars anymore. You have Yen that I've destroyed.

The point is, you can return property but what was taken was much more. We have destroyed entire cultures. People who were just trying to live their lives. Not only are they gone but their kids are gone and their kids will never exist. All the information that they held sacred and would have passed on has been lost in a sea of bullets and blood.

You think land replaces that? Because a few prosper from casinos? Look at your family... Would you trade your kids and your bloodline for a chunk of land? I would hope not.
 

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Patrick,
I wasn't talking about the "native americans" I was talking about Cuba, the Phillipines, Panama, etc. that you cited. If you want to talk about the indians we have to get down to a tribe by tribe discussion, but I can agree that some of the things the gov't did to them was really poor.
 

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I have Native American blood too (Cherokee), and looking at the picture without reading the words, it is a shame that it had to come out this way, for them.

But, you're just looking for an excuse to complain when you say that we took the land away from the Native Americans.
History takes the course it does for the reasons it does. Read the books!

PATRICK, If you want to blame history for the course it took, then why not go ALL THE WAY BACK to B.C., and look at the war crimes committed there. You could easily condemn all of humanity for the way things turned out.

As long as there will be different ways of life on this planet, there will be conflicts between powers, and each believes they are right.

I believe the whole world should be free, and the communists and socialists believe otherwise. Some countries want to destroy populations of thier own people!

The powers that be in charge of America and it's fighting forces are making the decisions regarding our lives, and I am confident in them. They take action based on information we hear about......and information we don't even HAVE A CLUE about.

I agree - we have a right to protest. But being I don't have all the information about what is really happening in the world around me - only what the media allows us to see - I could never, without prejudice, take action against my country! I trust our government - they may not always do the right thing IN HINDSIGHT, but I know thier intentions are for me and my loved ones' well-being - and we cannot elevate them above human beings.

So yes - if you want to complain about what this country has done throughout history, go ahead and moan. But understand this........

Our supposedly sordid history has provided us with the hope of a beautiful way of life so far, for us and our children.........and anyone who condemns it has got some really sorry issues.

I wholeheartedly support our country defending our way of life - not conservatively......BUT JEALOUSLY defending it, and yes - AGGRESSIVELY defending it!

LONG LIVE AMERICA, BAYBEE!
 

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I AGREE BOTUMFEDUR

Which reminds me of another point regarding the positive characteristics of American life. We as Americans have the power to peacefully change how we live our lives and how our government executes the policies set forth by our brances of government that express the views of the people(ie you and me!!!)

People living under tyranny have no recourse but to use violence and most choose not to because the risks are too high. So they live their lives the best they can under the conditions they were born into. Unfortunately in today's world tyrannists cannot go unchecked.

When the colonists left England for what is now the US they were looking for a different way to live. That was a very courageuos thing to do given the revolution it took to win the rights to actually live their convictions. What this administration is doing, in my opinion, is also courageuos. In essence they are protecting the freedoms that our forefathers fought so strongly for.

As for comparing this administration's policy with what happened to Native Americans, all I can say is that was then and this is now. We cannot hold this administration resposible for the decisions made back then. If that were the case then we should just fold up the tents.

Go Troops!!!

Ralph
 

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What was done to the American Indians is shameful. It was inevitible though, in that day and age. Almost every spot on this earth was taken over by force at one point or another. At least we have done more here with the land we stole than any other conquerors. Just look at Central and South America. This type of land grabbing is no longer the norm in todays world...so in that sense we are more "civilized".
 
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