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Correcting the Record: Recouping Commercial Fluke Quota
Lost to New York Due to Mis-reporting
Last year there was a clerical error wherein fluke were put on New York?s reporting landings when they should have been placed on New Jersey's. Councilor John (Sandy) Mason brought this to the Council?s attention and wanted to know what could be done to rectify the record and possibly recoup this lost quota (circa 15,000 lbs.) to New York's 2008 commercial fluke quota. Mr. Vic Vecchio, formerly of DEC and now a NMFS port agent officed on Long Island, thought that maybe the confusion came about because fishermen have landing permits for other states ? perhaps they land in New Jersey but ship the fish to Fulton and the credit for the fish is erroneously given to New York. This is one possible scenario. Electronic reporting started in 2004; we are still in the early stages of electronic reporting and problems are inevitable. He suggested that, although there have been mistakes made, New York will NOT get its 2008 commercial fluke allotment to make good on this previous mis-reporting. Councilor House thought that an audit of the assignation of landings data by the US Department of Commerce inspector general is called for and, where mistakes are found, it is only fair to request compensation. Caution was expressed, however, that an audit might reveal instances where fish landed in New York were mistakenly credited to another state; i.e., an audit can be very much a double-edged sword.
 

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Joe, is that Sandy Mason out of Shinne**** who owns the Vicenzo?

Anyway you answered your own question....it does not work this way in fishery management....if they are wrong with there numbers YOUR STILL SCREWED.... The whole system is broken....they might as well have the Sierra Club and other enviros on these councils....it is all about getting fishermen off the water. You can go fishing, just don't catch anything!

EC NEWELL MAN><
 

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Before I left NMFS (last April) this is what I was working on. My team and I discovered 92,000 pounds of fluke which had been misreported as NY landings since the advent of dealer electronic reporting(May 2004).

What was/is happening was/is NY vessels catch fluke and pack them in NY boxes at sea. They land the fish in NJ,RI,CT or wherever they have a landing license. The boxes are piled onto pallets and trucked to Fulton. The trucks are unloaded late at night or early the next morning and received by the various dealers. The shipping tag lists:Name of NY fisherman or company, NY address the check will go to and the pounds and species of fish (65 pounds lg. fluke for example).

The dealer sees the NY box, the NY fisherman, the NY address and can mistakenly report the fish as landed in NY. Some of the fishermen have actually bought stamps which say in large print; LANDED IN NJ for the fish they land in NJ. NY fishermen want the fish to come off the correct quota, they know NY has a tiny piece of the pie better then anyone, that's why they land in other states when it's financially doable.

It's far more complicated then I make it seem, but that is basically the main reason for the misreported landings Sandy is talking about.
 

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Yes EC that is Sandy Mason from the f/v Vincenzo.

Vic Vechio left the NY DEC to take my spot as NY Team Leader for NMFS in NY.

I don't think NY in general would suffer from a double edged sword, although their could be other ramifications based on discoveries made.
 

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Gotcha Mike, The key difference is NY vessels box fish at sea and pack out boxes. When a RI boat lands, their fish are in pens and are lumped out. The dock where they pack in Pt. Judith or Newport will be the primary dealer and will cull, pack and report the fish. This dealer whether it be Deep Sea or RI slavin or Parascandola may then ship to Fulton but Fulton dealers are not supposed to report the fish as they are secondary dealers. The NY packout docks don't report the fish they ship, only the fish they purchase which is very little. Half the consignment docks in NY don't even have a federal dealer permit.

This is another problem with dealer electronic reporting: Dealer to Dealer transactions. Take the example of the live fish dealer. They buy directly from harvester and report the fish as required. They have mortality in the pens and they take the dead fish and put them in boxes and ship them to Fulton. It is possible and in fact does happen that these fish get reported a second time. If the system does not catch it you get double reporting and twice the amount of fish coming off the quota.

The way we found the fish which should have come off other states quotas was by comparing Dealer data (port) with Vessel Data (port).
Prior to DER (dealer electronic reporting) we would get dealer reports on paper. The humans working w/ NY data new the vessels and the dealers and when we had a report come in w/ the wrong state/port we would notify the dealer and send the report to the proper port agent whether it was NJ,RI,CT,MA whomever. And when we saw a dealer to dealer transaction we would notify the dealer and through the report away.

There is a lot to be said for having knowledgeable humans looking at the data before it goes into the database. Pat doesn't see it that way. She rammed DER down everyones throat and the data has suffered for it. She also closed many of the offices up and down the coast. We all believe she feels data just happens w/ no real understanding of how difficult it is to create a quality landings database.

I hope I answered your question, if not please just ask again:)
 

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Yes Daddyo, That is the way it is supposed to work.

Landings data are based on dealer reports (not vessel trip reports). Dealers must report weekly on a trip level basis.

Each report contains:

dealer name
dealer permit number
dealer address
vessel name
vessel permit number
trip ID (this is the number on the VTR which the vessel files)
species purchased by market category (sm. md. lg. etc.)
pounds of each
price per pound / value
date of purchase(different from date landed which vessel reports)
port
state
signature
 

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Yep JR, those North Carolina and Virginia boys worked it a little differently and that is party why their commercial industry is so strong even today.

Water Aye, yep thats the way it used to look down at the market....Hunts Point is now a shadow of what the Fulton used to look like. Fish shippers have now gotten smarter and bypassed the Fulton as a end means of moving fish. Now they directly ship to other markets, and it is all about putting them on your own trucks and send them to Baltimore, Philadephia and Boston to take advantage of the prices in those markets.

Fulton is now used as a alternative moving point for fish since they cannot handle the volumn that they did in the past. Years past, a vast majority of product was just directly shipped into Fulton, now catches are parceled up with a little here and a little going there, thats why your not dependent on Fulton. You can play fish houses in different areas returns against each other, and take advantage of a few cent higher return by moving your fish some place else.

Gaining a nickel, or dime a lb more, does make a big difference, especially when returns to the fishermen have literally remained stagnant or fallen behind with the cost of inflation.

EC NEWELL MAN<>
 

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WaterAye wrote:
Gotcha Mike, The key difference is NY vessels box fish at sea and pack out boxes. When a RI boat lands, their fish are in pens and are lumped out. The dock where they pack in Pt. Judith or Newport will be the primary dealer and will cull, pack and report the fish. This dealer whether it be Deep Sea or RI slavin or Parascandola may then ship to Fulton but Fulton dealers are not supposed to report the fish as they are secondary dealers. The NY packout docks don't report the fish they ship, only the fish they purchase which is very little. Half the consignment docks in NY don't even have a federal dealer permit.

This is another problem with dealer electronic reporting: Dealer to Dealer transactions. Take the example of the live fish dealer. They buy directly from harvester and report the fish as required. They have mortality in the pens and they take the dead fish and put them in boxes and ship them to Fulton. It is possible and in fact does happen that these fish get reported a second time. If the system does not catch it you get double reporting and twice the amount of fish coming off the quota.

The way we found the fish which should have come off other states quotas was by comparing Dealer data (port) with Vessel Data (port).
Prior to DER (dealer electronic reporting) we would get dealer reports on paper. The humans working w/ NY data new the vessels and the dealers and when we had a report come in w/ the wrong state/port we would notify the dealer and send the report to the proper port agent whether it was NJ,RI,CT,MA whomever. And when we saw a dealer to dealer transaction we would notify the dealer and through the report away.

There is a lot to be said for having knowledgeable humans looking at the data before it goes into the database. Pat doesn't see it that way. She rammed DER down everyones throat and the data has suffered for it. She also closed many of the offices up and down the coast. We all believe she feels data just happens w/ no real understanding of how difficult it is to create a quality landings database.

I hope I answered your question, if not please just ask again:)

Eric,
Thanks that covered it.
 

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Fulton Fish Market

Steve-

Not to detract from the topic too much, but since you mentioned Fulton in your last post, I was reminded of when the NY Aquarium organized tours of the market, during the wee hours when it was bustling. My dad took me on one of these once, I'd say I was about 10 yrs old, and had the fishing bug bad already. What a sight that was for a kid! One thing I distinctly recall is seeing swordfish stacked one on top of another, they looked gigantic to a youngster! Since this tour was early enough in the morning, I was able to still make school that day, and I also remember being somewhat emabrassed that my sneakers stunk of fish, lol! I sincerly hope that it isn't the city's intentions to turn such a historical place into yet more overpriced condos, or upscale shops.
 
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