Figured will make it a broad topic. Why are the cork bottoms of conventional rods longer than spinning? How do you cast a conventional reel - I know its a stupid question, but just getting started with conventional - I know how to cast it, but should I be using the length of the rod butt for more use? Thanks!
Casting Conventional Reels
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Joined
·
16 Posts
Hi,
I am new to casting a conventional set-up myself. I picked up a Penn 140 Squidder and threw it on a Diawa X surf casting rod (with a long butt). My thinking is that if I can educate my thumb on a squidder i'll be ready to cast almost any other conv. reel out there. This my be a case of the "blind leading the blind". However, what I understand is that you need to hold the rod with your hands about the same distance apart as the width of your shoulders when casting. This may in part account for the longer butt length needed. Good luck!
I am new to casting a conventional set-up myself. I picked up a Penn 140 Squidder and threw it on a Diawa X surf casting rod (with a long butt). My thinking is that if I can educate my thumb on a squidder i'll be ready to cast almost any other conv. reel out there. This my be a case of the "blind leading the blind". However, what I understand is that you need to hold the rod with your hands about the same distance apart as the width of your shoulders when casting. This may in part account for the longer butt length needed. Good luck!
Joined
·
505 Posts
new to this game as well
I enrolled my thumb in its first year of school with abu garcia 6500 and paired it with an 8 footer. I use it to throw needles, bucktails, etc. Over the winter I picked up a pro max 3600 and will pair it with a light 6' stick for throwing top water plugs to schoolies. (Any suggestions for a rod btw? I'm considering a number of blanks from Graphite-USA, St Croix, Lami, etc.)
Despite creating some IGFA All Tackle Records for birds-nests, the thumb is staying in school. Learning with conventionals can be really frustrating and slow picking especially with artificials. But it is worthwhile and rewarding because its hard.
When getting started I'd suggest....
- brining a spinner along just in case the going gets too tough. this is especially true at night with a long walk into a spot.
- keeping a spare spool of line to refill the reel after cutting out huge backlashes
- spooling up with heavier line to begin with, then slimming down to more normal tests. spooling with mono is also a good starting place
- being conservative with the anti-backlash settings at first
- using bait or 'simple' artificials that don't require too much finesse
good luck to all!
I enrolled my thumb in its first year of school with abu garcia 6500 and paired it with an 8 footer. I use it to throw needles, bucktails, etc. Over the winter I picked up a pro max 3600 and will pair it with a light 6' stick for throwing top water plugs to schoolies. (Any suggestions for a rod btw? I'm considering a number of blanks from Graphite-USA, St Croix, Lami, etc.)
Despite creating some IGFA All Tackle Records for birds-nests, the thumb is staying in school. Learning with conventionals can be really frustrating and slow picking especially with artificials. But it is worthwhile and rewarding because its hard.
When getting started I'd suggest....
- brining a spinner along just in case the going gets too tough. this is especially true at night with a long walk into a spot.
- keeping a spare spool of line to refill the reel after cutting out huge backlashes
- spooling up with heavier line to begin with, then slimming down to more normal tests. spooling with mono is also a good starting place
- being conservative with the anti-backlash settings at first
- using bait or 'simple' artificials that don't require too much finesse
good luck to all!
Joined
·
536 Posts
I assume the models your using have mechanics similar to the ones I use in freshwater.
Biggest tip...start right. There should be a knob to set initial tension. Tie on lure, hold rod at 45 degree angle, press the cast button. Lure should just barely start moving and descend slowly to ground. If it races down and starts a backlash, tighten that tension knob. Make it a habit to do this after every lure change. Every bait has at least slightly different weight. Takes 2 seconds to do this quick fine tune.
Next, consider sacraficing a little distance in the name of less backlash. Set the internal magnets or whatever a little more agressively. Yes you loose some distance, but you save time not picking out nests and wasting line. As you get better you can back the mags off and go for distance. Some guys are so good they can free spool. I still need a little back-up. Adjust these depending on the wind you may be casting into as well.
Biggest tip...start right. There should be a knob to set initial tension. Tie on lure, hold rod at 45 degree angle, press the cast button. Lure should just barely start moving and descend slowly to ground. If it races down and starts a backlash, tighten that tension knob. Make it a habit to do this after every lure change. Every bait has at least slightly different weight. Takes 2 seconds to do this quick fine tune.
Next, consider sacraficing a little distance in the name of less backlash. Set the internal magnets or whatever a little more agressively. Yes you loose some distance, but you save time not picking out nests and wasting line. As you get better you can back the mags off and go for distance. Some guys are so good they can free spool. I still need a little back-up. Adjust these depending on the wind you may be casting into as well.
Joined
·
5,324 Posts
maxkatt wrote:
There should be a knob to set initial tension. Tie on lure, hold rod at 45 degree angle, press the cast button. Lure should just barely start moving and descend slowly to ground. If it races down and starts a backlash, tighten that tension knob. Make it a habit to do this after every lure change. Every bait has at least slightly different weight. Takes 2 seconds to do this quick fine tune
With all due respect, the tensioning knob is not an anti-backlash device. It is used to set (minimize) the side to side play of the spool with respect to the bearings. The spool is supposed to revolve freely. It's how you cast. If you use it as you indicate, you will shorten the life of the reel.
The problem most people have with casting a conventional is the motion and the release point. People used to spinning gear think in terms of snapping (not meaning breaking) off their casts with shorter quicker motions. When casting a conventional, try loading and casting the rod with a smoother motion and a slightly earlier release point, than you would with a spinning reel. You need to allow time for the spool to spin up as opposed to spinning reels that just let line fall off a spool.
Start slow and easy until you start to feel the relationship of the motion and the release point. Then lean on it a little harder. One other thing you will need to learn aside from thumbing the reel when the payload lands, is to make adjustments during the cast, on the fly so to speak, to prevent overspooling by gently breaking the spool with your thumb in mid-flight. It's a very slight touch or tap. It's hard to explain because I do it without thinking now. The advice of learning on a mag-type reel is good advice.
-Rich
This post edited by RichTrox 02:40 AM 03/26/2008
There should be a knob to set initial tension. Tie on lure, hold rod at 45 degree angle, press the cast button. Lure should just barely start moving and descend slowly to ground. If it races down and starts a backlash, tighten that tension knob. Make it a habit to do this after every lure change. Every bait has at least slightly different weight. Takes 2 seconds to do this quick fine tune
With all due respect, the tensioning knob is not an anti-backlash device. It is used to set (minimize) the side to side play of the spool with respect to the bearings. The spool is supposed to revolve freely. It's how you cast. If you use it as you indicate, you will shorten the life of the reel.
The problem most people have with casting a conventional is the motion and the release point. People used to spinning gear think in terms of snapping (not meaning breaking) off their casts with shorter quicker motions. When casting a conventional, try loading and casting the rod with a smoother motion and a slightly earlier release point, than you would with a spinning reel. You need to allow time for the spool to spin up as opposed to spinning reels that just let line fall off a spool.
Start slow and easy until you start to feel the relationship of the motion and the release point. Then lean on it a little harder. One other thing you will need to learn aside from thumbing the reel when the payload lands, is to make adjustments during the cast, on the fly so to speak, to prevent overspooling by gently breaking the spool with your thumb in mid-flight. It's a very slight touch or tap. It's hard to explain because I do it without thinking now. The advice of learning on a mag-type reel is good advice.
-Rich
This post edited by RichTrox 02:40 AM 03/26/2008
Joined
·
536 Posts
Rich- I have 2 conference calls coming up, but had to Google this. I trust your information, but help me if you can. It seems like the practice I've been employing is correct and good for something. Perhaps not backlash reduction? Can you explain. To me, if the lure hits the ground and the spool continues to spin...that's backlash. Set the tension correctly...spool stops dead=backlash reduction. No? I understand the diff between the drag and the tension knobs. Here's what I found on the topic:
A)"Problem: Reel will not cast with ease or for a reasonable distance.
Cause #2: Spool tension adjusted too tight.
Solution: Hold rod at 45 degree angle and depress spool release button / bar. Adjust spool tension knob to the point where the lure is descending very slowly (almost to the point of stopping). This adjustment must be performed each time a lure is changed."
B)"Put the break at it?s highest setting, usually 10. Now, adjust the spool tension as tight as it will go (usually on the right side with no numbers). Hold the rod and reel straight out in front of you and click the line release button to allow the lure to fall straight down to the ground. Start backing off the spool tension until the lure (I use practice plugs) slowly falls to the ground, and when it hits, no more line comes off the spool. This is the correct setting."
C)"tie on a 2 ounce weight to the end of the line, and tighten the tension knob finger tight. The tension knob may be on the left side of the reel or on the right side next to the drag, depending on the model of reel you have. Do not confuse the tension knob with the drag. With the tension knob tight, hold the rod tip up at about 11 O'clock and release the clutch so the reel is in free spool. Slowly back off the tension knob until the weight will slowly and evenly fall to the ground, and on hitting the ground, the reel stops spinning. This is very important that the reel does not continue to spin. You might have to play with it a time or two to get it right, but it is critical."
I'll check back in the afternoon. -Max
A)"Problem: Reel will not cast with ease or for a reasonable distance.
Cause #2: Spool tension adjusted too tight.
Solution: Hold rod at 45 degree angle and depress spool release button / bar. Adjust spool tension knob to the point where the lure is descending very slowly (almost to the point of stopping). This adjustment must be performed each time a lure is changed."
B)"Put the break at it?s highest setting, usually 10. Now, adjust the spool tension as tight as it will go (usually on the right side with no numbers). Hold the rod and reel straight out in front of you and click the line release button to allow the lure to fall straight down to the ground. Start backing off the spool tension until the lure (I use practice plugs) slowly falls to the ground, and when it hits, no more line comes off the spool. This is the correct setting."
C)"tie on a 2 ounce weight to the end of the line, and tighten the tension knob finger tight. The tension knob may be on the left side of the reel or on the right side next to the drag, depending on the model of reel you have. Do not confuse the tension knob with the drag. With the tension knob tight, hold the rod tip up at about 11 O'clock and release the clutch so the reel is in free spool. Slowly back off the tension knob until the weight will slowly and evenly fall to the ground, and on hitting the ground, the reel stops spinning. This is very important that the reel does not continue to spin. You might have to play with it a time or two to get it right, but it is critical."
I'll check back in the afternoon. -Max
Joined
·
1,932 Posts
Max,
What type of reel did that information you found relate too?? It sounds like the advice given to people learning the little freshwater baitcasters. My experience with these has been there is a knob on that you adjust per the information you posted, and when the lure is dropping slowly then it is set correctly.
On the large conventionals I fish the beach with (Penn 980Mags) there is a knob on the side opposite the handle that does what Rich mentions above. It controls the play in the spool. I have this turned down just enough so the spool moves just the slightest bit side to side. This setting is nowhere near enough to slow the freefall of even a 1 ounce sinker.
I feel that the correct technique is more important to avoiding the backlashes than any settings on the reels. When watching a good caster with a spinning rod you will see them snatch the rod into the backcast and sharply snap it forward shooting their plug on a lower line drive type trajectory. When tossing a conventional outfit this motion will not work, well, it will but you will only succeed in creating KILLER backlashes. A sharp snapping motion will get the reels spool turning quicker than the payload can pull line off and this is your birdsnest!!!
A loooooong time ago
![]()
![]()
I was given advice that right away cured my conventional problems. Very simple, I throw from the right side so I stand sideways with the left shoulder facing the target and slightly tilted away from the target. My only thought is to try and throw the payload UP!! I want to feel like I am goig to throw it straight up in the air!!! This will teach you the release point for conventional casting.
One other thing, don't be afraid to take your thumb off the spool completely. I've seen many people who have heard you must "thumb" the spool or you will overrun. This is true, but only as the cast reaches it's end and begins to slow down. While you are reaching for sky, don't hesitate to get your thumb off the spool. Pinching the spool early on in the cast is not fun!! I can tell you personally of the "smoked thumbs" I had learning this.
What type of reel did that information you found relate too?? It sounds like the advice given to people learning the little freshwater baitcasters. My experience with these has been there is a knob on that you adjust per the information you posted, and when the lure is dropping slowly then it is set correctly.
On the large conventionals I fish the beach with (Penn 980Mags) there is a knob on the side opposite the handle that does what Rich mentions above. It controls the play in the spool. I have this turned down just enough so the spool moves just the slightest bit side to side. This setting is nowhere near enough to slow the freefall of even a 1 ounce sinker.
I feel that the correct technique is more important to avoiding the backlashes than any settings on the reels. When watching a good caster with a spinning rod you will see them snatch the rod into the backcast and sharply snap it forward shooting their plug on a lower line drive type trajectory. When tossing a conventional outfit this motion will not work, well, it will but you will only succeed in creating KILLER backlashes. A sharp snapping motion will get the reels spool turning quicker than the payload can pull line off and this is your birdsnest!!!
A loooooong time ago
One other thing, don't be afraid to take your thumb off the spool completely. I've seen many people who have heard you must "thumb" the spool or you will overrun. This is true, but only as the cast reaches it's end and begins to slow down. While you are reaching for sky, don't hesitate to get your thumb off the spool. Pinching the spool early on in the cast is not fun!! I can tell you personally of the "smoked thumbs" I had learning this.
Joined
·
536 Posts
Surfstix- Thanks...I was indeed refering to freshwater baitcasters. That was my one assumption (apparently incorrect) if you look at my initial post. I thought the mechanics would be the same. Guess not. In any case, I do agree it's more about technique than anything. I've tried the freshwater baitcasters in salt, but with on-shore breezes and heavier lures I found it to difficult to control the backlash. I use them with success in fresh, but staying with the spinning in salt. I understand the supposed improved winching power, but I really think the value in fresh is hitting targets (which I don't encounter as much on the beach). The ability to slow a bait down and "park it" gently next to a stump or weedbed is my primary purpose.
Perhaps the ultimate solution is for Shimano to make one of these for salt apps...
Perhaps the ultimate solution is for Shimano to make one of these for salt apps...
Attachments
Joined
·
418 Posts
last year i started casting an abu on a 12ft stick for the ocean to get over some large waves - all for throwing bait...
the first thing i learned was don't try to wail it out there
think a nice easy lob - trying to keep the spool under control without too much thumb or tension...
and then once you get the hang of it
work up from there...
the first thing i learned was don't try to wail it out there
think a nice easy lob - trying to keep the spool under control without too much thumb or tension...
and then once you get the hang of it
work up from there...
Joined
·
5,324 Posts
surfstix wrote:
One other thing, don't be afraid to take your thumb off the spool completely. I've seen many people who have heard you must "thumb" the spool or you will overrun. This is true, but only as the cast reaches it's end and begins to slow down.
This is little adjustments on the fly I was referring to. Funny thing is I don't do it by sight, I do it by sound. I use Ande on all my conventionals, and when I cast and my payload reaches the apex of it's arc and starts to drop (slow down) I can hear the sound of the line just starting to overspool. A little touch, or brushing of the thumb against the spool edge slows the spool just enough to prevent it from happening. I've heard this referred to as the proverbial educated thumb.
I learned to cast with Penn Sqidders, Beachmasters, and Jigmasters. I still use an old Beachmaster with the original stainless steel spool, which is much heavier than todays graphite ones. With no line on it and out of gear, if I spin the spool with my thumb I can go to the store to get milk and it will still be spinning when I get back
![]()
. Talk about monster birdnests
![]()
. Just start slow, you'll get it after awhile.
-Rich
One other thing, don't be afraid to take your thumb off the spool completely. I've seen many people who have heard you must "thumb" the spool or you will overrun. This is true, but only as the cast reaches it's end and begins to slow down.
This is little adjustments on the fly I was referring to. Funny thing is I don't do it by sight, I do it by sound. I use Ande on all my conventionals, and when I cast and my payload reaches the apex of it's arc and starts to drop (slow down) I can hear the sound of the line just starting to overspool. A little touch, or brushing of the thumb against the spool edge slows the spool just enough to prevent it from happening. I've heard this referred to as the proverbial educated thumb
.I learned to cast with Penn Sqidders, Beachmasters, and Jigmasters. I still use an old Beachmaster with the original stainless steel spool, which is much heavier than todays graphite ones. With no line on it and out of gear, if I spin the spool with my thumb I can go to the store to get milk and it will still be spinning when I get back
-Rich
Joined
·
1,932 Posts
{{{{{{ SQUIDDERS }}}}}}
Learned on them and loved them reels a bunch till I met the Penn 980Mag back in the early 90s. I stockpiled 7 of them when Penn stopped production of this model.
![]()
![]()
![]()
![]()
Best conventional they ever put out IMHO !!
Learned on them and loved them reels a bunch till I met the Penn 980Mag back in the early 90s. I stockpiled 7 of them when Penn stopped production of this model.
Best conventional they ever put out IMHO !!
Joined
·
505 Posts
thumb on the edge...
RichTrox wrote:
A little touch, or brushing of the thumb against the spool edge slows the spool just enough to prevent it from happening.
this is a lesson you don't want to learn the hard way.
thumb + line + motion = heat on mono.
heated mono + big fish = heart ache.
RichTrox wrote:
A little touch, or brushing of the thumb against the spool edge slows the spool just enough to prevent it from happening.
this is a lesson you don't want to learn the hard way.
thumb + line + motion = heat on mono.
heated mono + big fish = heart ache.
Joined
·
536 Posts
Rich- You just reminded me of the other reason I'd hessitated using a baitcaster which is not being able to see the bait land. Without that it would be hard for me to know when to stop the spool. The little bit I did on the beach with my freshwater baitcaster was in the day (7' rod, Quantum round reel loaded with 20lb Suffix). I distinctly remember even in daylight finding it hard to follow the lure with my eyes and I think with the waves hearing it was impossible. I remember thinking that at night it would be...a nightmare. Only way I as a newbie could get around it would be to really thumb it a little all the way out, but I hate saccraficing distance. Hence the retreat to spinning.
Joined
·
5,324 Posts
there's no law saying you have to learn conventional....
It's not for everybody. I mostly use conventional for deep fast water bucktailing or for lobbing chunks and sometimes eels. I fish spinning gear also. It usually depends on where I am going and what I plan to throw.
As for technique, it takes practice because it feels different from what you are used to with spinning. It's all about the motion and release point, which has everything to do with getting the spool to spin up to, and match, the speed that your payload will be traveling at. Release to early and the rod swings, but the payload is to "heavy" from not being in motion, the result is the payload does not go anywhere and you get a birdnest. Release to late and the spool is unable to spin up to the speed that payload is traveling, the result is the payload hits the water at your feet, big splash and nasty overspool. This is why it is important to start your motion SLOW and SMOOTH. It will allow you to develope the feel for whats actually going on with the spool, rod, and payload. Gotta learn to walk before you can run.
Surfstix - I heard good things about those Penn Mags, just never got around to buying one
-Rich
It's not for everybody. I mostly use conventional for deep fast water bucktailing or for lobbing chunks and sometimes eels. I fish spinning gear also. It usually depends on where I am going and what I plan to throw.
As for technique, it takes practice because it feels different from what you are used to with spinning. It's all about the motion and release point, which has everything to do with getting the spool to spin up to, and match, the speed that your payload will be traveling at. Release to early and the rod swings, but the payload is to "heavy" from not being in motion, the result is the payload does not go anywhere and you get a birdnest. Release to late and the spool is unable to spin up to the speed that payload is traveling, the result is the payload hits the water at your feet, big splash and nasty overspool. This is why it is important to start your motion SLOW and SMOOTH. It will allow you to develope the feel for whats actually going on with the spool, rod, and payload. Gotta learn to walk before you can run
.Surfstix - I heard good things about those Penn Mags, just never got around to buying one
-Rich
Joined
·
1,932 Posts
Rich,
They really are sweet and they have only gone UP in price. Once in a while I'll look on EBAY and if you can find one they go from $100 to $150. OUCH!!!
![]()
![]()
Tight lines,,,,,,
![]()
They really are sweet and they have only gone UP in price. Once in a while I'll look on EBAY and if you can find one they go from $100 to $150. OUCH!!!
Tight lines,,,,,,
Joined
·
146 Posts
Another tip for those just getting started with any surfcasting conventional is to remove and clean the bearings with lighter fluid and then re-lube with a heavier oil. 3-in-1 Blue or even a thicker gear oil will keep the spool under control until you smooth out the casting motion. As RichTrox said, the "snap" motion most spinner users have is not conducive to casting a conventional for distance, it just imparts too much spool speed at the beginning.
Starting out with a reel with a magnetic control shortens the learning curve. The Penn 525MAG is a fantastic reel for a beginner but it is very fast. The reel is assembled with Red Rocket Fuel tournament oil in the bearings and a newbie would do well to follow my suggestion to use a slower oil to learn.
Magnet casting controls do not begin having an effect until after the spool is spun-up (Lenz's Law). . . Oil viscosity and line level (amount of line on the spool) are the primary speed controls for the beginning of the cast. This is when the new caster will blow-up most often, just after the release (due to poor casting form, not "reel" issues). Magnets only keep things going smooth as the line is being payed out, letting you have a "no touch" cast, until touchdown.
One thing to do to help smooth your casting motion is increase the length of your "drop;" the amount of line from the tip of your rod to the sinker. The longer the drop the more your casting motion slows down. Typically, a surfcaster's drop is near the "gathering" guide and the motion is begun with the rod nearly vertical. Let the sinker swing all the way back and at the apex begin a smooth overhead motion finishing with a strong push /pull at the end.
Start slow and finish fast . . . Here's a great video of the cast
This post edited by OverTheBar 09:12 PM 03/28/2008
Starting out with a reel with a magnetic control shortens the learning curve. The Penn 525MAG is a fantastic reel for a beginner but it is very fast. The reel is assembled with Red Rocket Fuel tournament oil in the bearings and a newbie would do well to follow my suggestion to use a slower oil to learn.
Magnet casting controls do not begin having an effect until after the spool is spun-up (Lenz's Law). . . Oil viscosity and line level (amount of line on the spool) are the primary speed controls for the beginning of the cast. This is when the new caster will blow-up most often, just after the release (due to poor casting form, not "reel" issues). Magnets only keep things going smooth as the line is being payed out, letting you have a "no touch" cast, until touchdown.
One thing to do to help smooth your casting motion is increase the length of your "drop;" the amount of line from the tip of your rod to the sinker. The longer the drop the more your casting motion slows down. Typically, a surfcaster's drop is near the "gathering" guide and the motion is begun with the rod nearly vertical. Let the sinker swing all the way back and at the apex begin a smooth overhead motion finishing with a strong push /pull at the end.
Start slow and finish fast . . .
Here's a great video of the castThis post edited by OverTheBar 09:12 PM 03/28/2008
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
