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Without accuratly counting the all anglers and mortality rates (BOTH COMMERCIAL AND RECREATIONAL) no laws conserning striped bass will be accurate. So whatever argument you have is moot, even mine. We've been heading in the right direction for awhile. We've just stalled and can't seem to get going agian. The problem is that we are dealing with a Burucratic system thats willing to wheel and deal without having an accurate count of all user groups and mortality rates. This "system" is still putting our needs (read $$) above the fish.

We actually have no idea how many fish are killed each year either from recreational overstress, accidental or intentional (like Jamacia Bay) poluting or indirect commercial use. We make an educated (depending which side of the street your on) guess. How can anybody even think of calculating "f" numbers to base research on?
 

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Doughboy
Just one more thing before this topic is completely beaten.
If your on a charter boat and catch a keeper, if and when you catch your second you have the right to let it go.
The captain doesn't put the gaff up to your neck and force you to keep it.
Heck it just makes his job a little easier the next time out.
Believe me when I say the bass population is doing just fine. If you think that charter boats with a 2 fish limit are going to deplete the bass population then you should think of a career change. Go get your six pack license and get rich like all the millionaire charter captains.
Someday you will see the BIG picture.
I do have a question for you before I go.
How many king fish did you catch this year?
 

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KNOTME,

Even if I was on a charter I would not keep anything. I personally don't like to eat fish, I enjoy the hunt and the fight. I know that I am in the minority though and most people given the opportunity, will keep their limits. And for whatever you are trying to get at about kingfish, I haven't fished for or caught any, ever. When we were kids, my brother caught one while weakfish fishing.

George,

Thank you for explaining the striper regulations throughout the Northeast. If what you are saying is correct about the regulations, it seems I am wrong to place blame on New York's charter industry and I apologize. But I cannot beleive that New York State recreational sportfisherman lobbied to have more restrictions put on themselves. Do you know what organization or group asked for that? I will ask Byron about it.

I also give charter boat captains more credit than being just a "taxi". Their skill and knowledge is giving people, who MIGHT not be able to catch a searobin on their own, a much greater chance of catching a trophy fish.

And commercial by-catch is a whole new discussion I will not even attempt to address.

I am just arguing for what seems fair to all of New York's anglers. If the recreational sector did in fact want stricter limits on themselves then I am also for it.

I will also quit beating the dead horse now.
 

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george,

thank you for pointing out that the NY recreational anglers asked to be limited to 1 bass per day. i certainly do not have a problem with that either.

what troubles me is that it troubles you "that somehow people think that the same rule should apply to the charter & party boat industry which wanted the second fish".

is the second fish not being taken by NY recreational anglers?

why should the charter/party boat industry be able to select a different rule for their customers?

did the same NY recreational anglers, that asked to be limited to 1 bass per day, also ask to be limited to 2 bass per day when they were on a charter/party boat?

whatever happened to the US constitutional right to equality under the law?




set,
opinari
 

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First of all, I like to thank you all for sharing your opinions regarding this critical and very important topic.
Let?s address the following and maybe we could clear some air.

There is a lot of mumble jumble wording going on in here that I believe we need to clarify. Why? It?s troubling enough that we have many user groups that are trying their very best to decide what is best for this fishery. But to be in the same page, we need to clarify what is the true meaning of Maximum Harvest and Normal Age and Size Distribution.

Furthermore, how about clarifying what?s in the Amendment 6 Management Plan? Lastly, there is too much slack going in the Commercial By-Catch world, which I have, a good idea how destructive and devastating it is? but nobody wants to touch this. I want to know why? There is something VERY UGLY going on there?

All in all, this is a very complicated matter and yet, ?we? make matters worse by trying to blame other ?fishing / recreational? groups. I could tell you one thing? the commercial entities are laughing at us now?because we really don?t have a voice (power) and we are also playing with the #?s that is allocated to us?.

I just fee that anything we give up (for the good of this fishery)?the commercials will gladly take it (because it is an allocation matter) and continue to abuse/destroy ?our? resources quietly.

I know these are tough question, but anybody wants to take a crack at this?

"Crazy" Alberto
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Hi Al,

I chose to avoid getting into the commercial by-catch issue is for two reasons.

-I dont think we have too many commercial fisherman on this site, and to start complaining about them would just lead to a very one sided debate. Of course most of the sportfisherman will hate the loss of stripers to by-catch.

-We have already strayed far away from the original topic of discussion on this thread and I didn't think we should start a new branch here. If you don't mind, then I am all for it.

Earlier this summer, there was a thread started here about a school of dead stripers found outside of Fire Island Inlet, the result of a dragger's by catch. I personally saw fish floating in the inlet the following two days. WHAT A WASTE OF A RESOURCE. The dilemma is, it seems that if the fish are caught and are going to die anyway, they should be allowed to by kept and sold. But how can you keep the commercial industry from using this loop hole as an excuse for illegally targeting fish and then using the by-catch as an excuse.



This message was edited by doughboy on 12-5-01 @ 12:17 PM
 

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Doughboy,

The vast amount of fishing clubs, organizations and individuals, myself included, were concerned at the time that two fish at 28-inches per day per angler would put too much of a strain on the overall biomass. And now some of the current science seems to suggest that we were correct.

Opinari,

Here?s a shortened version of the way I see it: Recreational anglers didn?t want the second bass and the party/charter boats did, and each group got what they wanted in the end. Both fell well within the guidelines of the Striped Bass Management Plan, which I?m sure we could all agree has been a success. Also keep in mind that nowhere in the regualtion does it say that they have to keep two fish, it?s up to each individual angler.

There allot of different way?s to view it, there?s your way and then there?s the ?why should I be restricted to one bass when everyone else in the country is fishing the equivalent of two?"

Either way one thing is certain, there will always be a difference of opinions when it comes to the mighty striped bass, and the truth is, it?s probably in the best shape of all of our recreational fisheries.

Respectfully,
George R. Scocca
Publisher, Nor'east Saltwater
 

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Crazy Al touched on something is very important and it is something that I have mentioned several times. There is NO unity amongst the recreational anglers at all. The catch and release groups want to raise the size limits and lower the bag limit, the party/charter industry wants the opposite and others lay somewhere in between. As a result, our ability to lobby is greatly reduced and our voice is disorganized and weak. We need to learn to be tolerant of each other and stop squabbling while the commercial industry continues the slaughter and bycatch waste. They have a very strong voice because they are unified. After all, when was the last time you heard a gillnetter complain about a dragger in public? They work together during public hearings and rarely speak out against a different method of commercial fishing.

I don't want to go into great detail, but bycatch is a tremendous problem for many different species. Just remember that for each pound of wild Gulf shrimp you eat, 9 pounds of finfish were killed. I don't what the statistics are for the draggers in the Northeast groundfishery, but assured that it ain't pretty...

Gamakatsu



This message was edited by Gamakatsu on 12-5-01 @ 12:02 PM
 

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Maximum harvest, Hmmm.... In late Oct some commercial guy's were dragging off Chatham and hit a school of COW stripers as a Bye-Catch, all were in the 30 to 60 lb range, all were tossed back to root! I have a license as a weekend wonder
and have since stopped C-fishin the last few years. This past season we released tons of 30-40lb stripers fishin for fun and only kept very few small but legal ones for the table. The biggest problem I.M.O. is consistent regulations up and down the coast, period! Fifteen - Twenty years ago we wouldn't even be talken/bitchin about this, now would we? I'm up for the slot limit bigtime and keep one COW over 50" per person/year, the rest get thrown back. Have you guy's ever tasted a filet from a 50 lb striper, I'd rather eat a steak!
 

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Gamakatsu wrote:
[/I]quote:

...I know what the problem is, but I sure don't have a solution. Maybe we can lift all the limits, both commercial and recreational--In about 5 years time the problem will be solved.
[/i]

Wrong!
With the Commercial By-Catch, I?ll give it one year and it will be categorized the same as the (gone for good) whiting fishery! That?s how devastating I believe the commercial by catch can be!

In all seriousness, at this time, we have no answers. We have too many "fishing organizations" representing our best interest and yet, we still don?t see eye to eye. You might sense some frustrations out of me? but I can tell you, I am NOT alone! You ask yourself, how is that possible when we have millions strong? and yet, we are so weak?

What's really sad, we know what the other party is doing (brotherly unified, politically connected, powerful lobbying group) but we can?t get our act together!

Why is that? Are they smarter than we are?
I like to think NOT.

"Crazy" Alberto
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This message was edited by Crazy-Al on 12-6-01 @ 2:25 PM
 

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Hi all,

Think about this, How many fishermen actively support (at least join and pay yearly dues) the organizations that are fighting for our share? If accurate info could be had, I bet less than 30% of fishing people join and support these organizations. I bet many of the people who complain the most won't and don't put their money where their mouth is!!!! Talk is cheap!!! Ante up $$$$$ for defense funds!!!!! The commercials are very good at defending their turf and attacking ours. Get involved.

Capt Neil

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Capt. Neil,

I think your intentions are correct, however, to which group do I contribute? I refuse to send my money to an organization that advocates strictly C&R or excessively large size limits or the use of circle hooks only. These groups tend to lobby against party/charter boats and look at them as the enemy. While I am out of the business, I recognize that they play an important role in recreational fishing and that they (party/charter boats) should be allowed to make a living. I have no problem with C&R, but they have a problem with me because I eat many of the legal fish that I catch. I also doubt the "conservation minded" anglers would be willing to contribute to any Captain's Associations, so how do we unite?

Crazy Al, I hope that you understand that I was being sarcastic when I said what I did about lifting all limits. You are correct in that the by catch monster is our biggest enemy and it must be tamed.

Gamakatsu
 

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How can you ask for something if you don't know what you want?
The reason the commercials are getting what they want is because they all ask for the same thing.
Guys on this page can't agree on what hook to use never mind bass limits.

The recreational limit problem will NEVER be solved as far as I see it.

But you never know one good idea can open a lot of eyes.

That's why I'm here.

As far as by catch if you open commercial bass fishing more, it will ease up on by catch because more Com. guys will switch over to hook and line instead of dragging nets.
Less fish would actually be getting killed. It's has to be made so it's worth a guys effort to hook and line fish rather than drag a net. Right now it's not.
 

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Hi Gamakatsu,

You are right in the goals of different organizations. That I can handle because they are standing up for the recreationals. I like to catch fish, eat fish and hope the resource is protected therefore I can accept most of the goals.

I get tired of listening to all the whiners and complainers. Most of them that I have met do not belong to any organizations. AND are not interested in joining any.

I laugh when the posts talk about the party/charter boat lobby getting what it wants!!! HA!!! I have been in this industry 20 years and have gone to a couple meetings where owners, captains and crews talked about forming an organization. NEVER got off the ground. Most of these people are too individualistic to work together. Also they are always on the water working and don't have time for meetings.

Yes some of these people do go to the various gov't meetings trying to improve conditions for their patrons. Maybe in other states the owners work together.

Capt Neil

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I agree with Capt. Neil and Gamagatsu,

I can not stress how important that is to the ?Recreational? entity!

I am also talking about taking one step further?. I am reffering to our fishing organizations to do the right thing! Put down the gloves and look at the BIG picture! Sure we care about C&R, Allocation, Size Limit and Harvest, Big Game, Fly fishing, Trout, Fishing Economy, Protection, Endangered Species, Access, Cleaner Waters, Regulations, Kids & Fishing Programs, Tackle, Resorts, Reefs, Light Tackle, World Records, Shows, Licenses, Tournaments, Freshwater, Articles & Reporting, Education, etc? I understand each and every issue is pivotal to our fishing industry, but what are we doing to protect what is being taken away from us?

What's really disturbing is that the times I went to our fishery hearing, I always asked myself, Why is this billion $$$$ industry being taken so lightly?

But you know what? Reality hits home! During last year?s Fluke hearing which was held in Atlantic City?. I took Al Ristori?s compelling argument to heart! He eloquently presented factual statistics regarding a fishery that was once 80% recreational and 20% commercial and today?s allocation is reversed in favor of the commercial sectors!

Now, you may be wondering why I am so pressed about this topic. I guess my bio will unfold. After Mr. George (Noreast) read my goals. He admitted this is a challenging task but it would be quite an accomplishment if this were to be achieved. Yes, I agree? it would be a monumental accomplishment to this ?recreational fishing business??But unfortunately we are not going anywhere (but downhill) if we don?t do anything about it!

Now let me ask you this, if we could have by partisan parties in our nation?s capital hill?. Why can?t we have this in our fishing community? Are we so gun-ho about what we do and blinded by what?s happening?

Or do we simply don?t care?

"Crazy" Alberto
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Alberto,

I have long been an advocate of hook and line commercial fishing. Commercial harvesters do have a right to access this resource also, as long as it is not overly detrimental to the stock. Hook and line fishing on the commercial level would come as close to solving the the by catch problem as you can get.

Now, you also mentioned a "bi partisan" recreational fishing organization--I am all for it. However, it is my feeling that if you posted that idea on "the other website" that they would reach through the Internet and burn your computer. There seems to be much less tolerance on that site for those that advocate anything less than mouth to mouth resuscitation for stripers. It is that contigent of recreational anglers that needs to be more tolerant of the idea that people do actually eat fish. Any ideas??

Gamakatsu
 

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Slot limits do not work , and limits with no enforcement do not work, The commercials spend a ton of money lobbying, until the people making and selling us way overpriced tackle and making a nice profit for themselves get together and fight for thier customers and the fish the comms will always win..

I agree that other sites would have a much different result, no offense to Noreast but this site does seem to have alot "Fish Grabbers"
 
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