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Posted Reports and the Need to Educate Respectfully

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  Discussion Boards > Surf Fishing Forum
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walleyeman
Noreast.com Club Member


Moderator
Events, Seminars, & Tournaments
Surf Fishing Forum
Posted Reports

Joined: 07/30/2002
Posts: 3716
Location: Bohemia
 posted 10/05/2010 02:32 PM  

Rich wrote this very informative and helpful post in another thread and I felt it would be helpful to put it here. I changed my view on posted reports due to what Rich learned from John Skinner and shared with me. Because of my respect for Rich's knowledge and experience as a surfcaster, I asked for Rich's opinion on this subject and I believe that my present view of posted reports has helped me and many others in the long run.

Here is Rich's post:

Same as it ever was,.....

I think I'll wade in here for a bit again. I've written large volumes on the noreast reports issue, mostly in the form of PMs, but also on the board as well. These arguments have been going on for quite a while and some good points get made along the way. Some mis-information also, at least IMO. But few seem willing to work the problem in a productive way.

Jaybass wrote:
Its not fair to say only certain people can use a stretch of beach. Either everyone uses a public resource or no one does or people will have to pay a fee to do so.

With all due respect Jay, I can't say that I agree with this one. We already pay fees (permits) for access to areas, which are abused by those without permits. Sore Thumb in summer comes to mind. The mini van recently posted in Blasko's Wall of Shame thread is another. I can make a very long list of abuses. The only quick solution I see there is enforcement and I don't see that coming anytime soon, due to the economy if nothing else. Maybe I just didn't understand your point Toungue, but your voice is one of reason and is appreciated.

Posting fake reports.

If you post fake reports, then all you are doing is hurting other fishermen. You're not making a "point" or teaching anybody a lesson. All you are doing is expressing your anger by banging other peoples heads against the wall.

We live on an island with 3.3 million people and very limited access for those who fish from the surf. This is a problem and you either work the problem, or you're wasting your time. The noreast reports section is not going anywhere, and you can rail at the moon, but it's here to stay as is the internet. This is a problem for surf fishermen and you either work the problem, or you're wasting your time.

Slobs and littering.

As for slobs on the beach, it is my opinion that there is really no cure for this other than to pick up after them in order to protect our access. And if you don't think litter is an issue, then look out your car window next time you're stopped at a stop sign or red light. Littering is an epidemic in these parts and is part of a larger issue that stems from the me-first generation, that entitled group of a-holes that seems to make up the vocal majority of LI now.

And some of these people fish. Asking them nicely to remove their trash, or explaning to them why, is simply a waste of time as they have no point of reference for what you are explaining, nor do they care. They have already made up their minds, and this includes all classes and nationalities. If a person does it, then they have already decided that they're going to do it and screw anybody who doesn't like it. This is their mind set.

I'd like to think that we live in an "I'm OK, you're OK" kind of world, the kind of idealism that I grew up with in the late 60's, but it ain't so. The balance between those of the me-first, narcissistic mind set and those who put faith in common sense and respect, is slowing shifting toward the former. And the bad news here is that I don't see any quick fix for this one either.

A bit on human nature.

miss199 wrote:
This one tells that one and that one tells someone else. I guess people feel like they have to prove something or they think there heros.

This is not far from the truth.

Everybody wants to be the "man". It's in our nature, our competitive spirit, our very genes. And despite claims to the contrary, all people desire recognition for their achievements. It's how we measure ourselves against our peers. Like most aspects of human nature, it has it's good points and it's bad points.

All people seek acceptance from their peers. Some more actively than others, but all seek it. It is another of those basic instincts that nature programmed at a genetic level to ensure our survival and the propagation of the species. And again, like most aspects of human nature, it has it's good points and it's bad points.

All people are inclined to defend themselves when attacked. Again, another genetic level response intended for the propagation of the species. Otherwise it's out of the gene pool and into the sweet by and by. And it to has it's good points and it's bad.

How it relates.

The above three human traits are viewable all over these boards and especially the fishing reports, and it is the unintended backlash from these traits that needs to be addressed. Most people who post reports don't realize the impact that they may be having on others, as well as themselves. Many new to the sport find comfort and support in the positive feedback they may receive when they post a report that they caught a fish. And after receiving positive feedback, are inclined to repeat the process over and over. Many others like the comraderie that results from repeated contact with others, the sense of acceptance that comes with familiarity. And there is nothing wrong with this. And lastly, if challenged in an aggressive manner, you can bet that they defend themselves.

The best solution I can see.

Ultimately, it is by understanding the above dynamic that the only sensible, and so far effective, course of action can be devised. First, where spot burning and reports are concerned, you have to recognize that you can not eliminate the problem entirely. But you can try to manage it using the most productive methods possible. Many of us used to post, until we were "educated" to the effect that our posts were having on others. It was a novel amusement, just a bit of bragging and fun, and I was very vague about location, using only the drop-down. For my part, several members fired off nasty PMs at me, which I fired back nasty replies, in other words, I defended myself. The message may have been technically correct, but was delivered without an understanding of human nature, which rendered it ineffective.

My "education" came from several places. One was a PM conversation with John Skinner on the topic of posts. His response was even tempered and delivered with air-tight logic. The message was that it's not a matter of what you do to yourself when you post, it's what you may unitentionally do to others. This got me to thinking. I also noticed that other surf fishing only sites strictly prohibited spot posting. It became clear that the upper eschelon of the surf fishing community did not engage in spot discussions, and upon further examination their reasoning for this held water, pun intended. Not wanting "posting blood" on my hands and seeking acceptance in their ranks played a major part in my decision to not post. Note, I did not mention anything self-serving like "I didn't want to ruin MY spots".

Many of the members who post reports don't fully understand the possible raminfications of their actions. Many have not been fishing long, or have not been on the site long, in effect, they don't have the life experience to foresee the trickle down effects of their posted report. They are just fulfilling a few of the basic human instincts and mean no harm. If the person is a reasonable sort, then your sole, effective course of action is to "educate" them, and this should be done with an understanding of human nature. If you attack, they will defend and your mesage is lost. If you deliver your message with tact and solid reasoning, they may begin to understand.

I have many very long PMs addressing this issue with several members, most who have now come to understand the issue more fully and have adjusted their actions accordingly. I will PM or email them to any member who wants an explanation of the issue, or more importantly, wants to use them as a boilerplate / template for their own PM to another member. If you wish to compose your own, highlight the following issues, utilizing an understanding of human nature to your advantage. Is this manipulative, yeah probably, but most things in the real world are.

1) It's not the bad you may do to yourself, it is the unintentional harm you may do to others. Most people don't consider this and don't care for blood on their hands.
2) Remind that this is one of the major reasons why the "upper eschelon" does not do this.
3) That the posted reports are read by thousands, mostly by non-contributors, many of which constitute a bad element (slobs, illegals, etc). This is an important point because many members think that only the small group that replies or contributes are the ones reading the reports.
4) You understand that the member is just trying to "help" other like minds catch fish, but because of point# 3, it frequently backfires.
5) Point out that if the person is looking to advance within the "ranks" of the surf fishing community, then gaining an understanding of the culture is neccessary.
6) That respecting fellow surfcasters includes respecting their turf.

Please feel free to add any other points in a manner that utilizes human nature.

Summary

Their is no cure for stupidity, so any of the issues that involve stupid ignorant people can't be solved. In the words of the worlds smartest dumb guy, Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as stupid does." Your only recourse here is to try to minimize their negative impact and hope evolution takes them out of the gene pool.

Education, not regulation. The reports section is not going anywhere, so devise a strategy for dealing with it. Educate, and do it nicely. If you can't do it nicely, then do the rest of us a favor and pipe down.

Do you want to be right, or do you want to solve the problem.


LIBBA #1983
MSA #1982


This post edited by RichTrox 03:47 PM 01/25/2011
 
stpaul7
BIG DOG WINNER
2010

Joined: 04/23/2002
Posts: 16210
Location: Moriches
 posted 10/05/2010 03:11 PM  

Very good read Kevin up. I've been thinking alot on that subject too. Your 100% right about
"the posted reports are read by thousands, mostly by non-contributors, many of which constitute a bad element (slobs, illegals, etc). This is an important point because many members think that only the small group that replies or contributes are the ones reading the reports".
and that this always follows
"You understand that the member is just trying to "help" other like minds catch fish, but because of point# 3, it frequently backfires"
Maybe a pay for info like the reports would be a better answer? I know a popular Tuna Club that you can only see the reports if you pay LOTS of Money and are accepted by the club. That would cut down on alot of problems and policing reports right there.
I just don't feel like doing it anymore either, seems I'm not alone



BOAT FISH COUNT  MAMA MIA FISHING


This post edited by stpaul7 03:11 PM 10/05/2010
 
chunkster


Joined: 05/06/2009
Posts: 4597
Location: Password
 posted 10/05/2010 03:16 PM  

Thanks Rich & nor'east.com

upSmileShades


New England clam chowder.
YEAH?
With mushrooms.
COME IN!


This post edited by chunkster 03:29 PM 10/05/2010
 
Azaiter


Joined: 09/01/2002
Posts: 7598
Location: new york city
 posted 10/05/2010 03:28 PM  

Agree...great post,do you guys note how many report trasher are here,they are more and more every day,I think we been invade by PETA,I know a bunch of very good fisherman's they used to post,not any more they don't,thanks to the trasher....Fredd


I love God I love my family I love Fishing I love my country…Love it's everything that make me happy,thanks God for love'<ALSO I'M FAIR WEATHER FISHERMAN>and proud of it.
 
likeitreallyis


Joined: 10/28/2005
Posts: 16948
Location: Rolling in the deep....
 posted 10/06/2010 07:42 AM  

...luckily I think we are down to mostly the amateurs who post small fish.. you'll never see those 40,50 and 60 lbers in the NE.com posted reports section, just the guys still measuring in inches and not pounds...kinda like that 90 lb. weakling trying to flex for the babes Toungue

When you graduate to the next level, consideration of your fellow sportsmen becomes instinctive....

I think you hit it on the head Kevin.


What is worse is someone snapping a pic of you from a distance and then reporting where the pic was taken. Those should be reviewed and never make it's way onto the lurker's board.


Green Grass and High Tides forever,,,
 
CHEVY1


Joined: 03/17/2003
Posts: 27998
Location: levittown, N.Y.
 posted 10/06/2010 10:30 AM  

MY reports/posts don't burn spots


I drive a jeep, but CHEVY is in my blood. libba # 1742, Striped Bass Coop.
Take more garbage than you brought with you-every time!
 
evyjoseph

Joined: 09/30/2010
Posts: 44
 posted 10/06/2010 01:40 PM  

Just a Newbie!

Thanks Rich,

I'm glad to have read your post before I made my first.

I'm new to this site and to fishing in gerneal. I've gone with my uncle freshwater fishing as a kid and have never gone fishing again until about a year a go on a party boat. I did the boat thing since last summer 09 and now this past one but found it too expensive in this economy for a chance of catching a fish.

I bought some of my own gear after doing a little research and reading some posts and found this site. I haven't caught anything yet but I'm learning tons from guys like you and some of the really cool fishermen I've met out there where I fish.

I have tried under the bridge at City Island, Orchard Beach between sections 1 and 2 and also at Classen Point (Sound View, Bronx) with nothing more than some nibbles. I am determined to catch at least one fish before the year is out. I know it is probably more technique and learning how to read the water and other factors than anything else but I am having so much fun going out every chance I get.

I went from knowing nothing, to learning how to set up a rig and finding out what kinds of baits/lures to use for particular fish. I'm still trying to get the casting thing together without killing somebody.

I just want to thank you for showing some sensitivity towards the "know-nothings" like me. In general, from what I see, most of the people on hear are pretty cool and respectful of others on the site and on the water but like any other site, people tend to step out of character when sitting behind a keyboard.

Well, as you guys say on here... "Tight Lines"

Joe - Out of The Bronx
"Think big, but take small steps!"
 
walleyeman
Noreast.com Club Member


Moderator
Events, Seminars, & Tournaments
Surf Fishing Forum
Posted Reports

Joined: 07/30/2002
Posts: 3716
Location: Bohemia
 posted 10/06/2010 02:53 PM  

Welcome aboard Joe! You will find some great info here as well as great people who know their stuff. Thanks for sharing and saying hi!


LIBBA #1983
MSA #1982
 
fishkidsb


Joined: 07/01/2008
Posts: 1661
Location: Town
 posted 10/10/2010 08:40 PM  

How about the kids?

Some have used this site as an instrument to get their kids out there to go fishing. Kids love to see their accomplishments published (today's kids have grown up using an ipod, ipad, facebook, blackberry to keep up to date even on the go!). The reports section was a way for them to show off their accomplishments to their friends, in an online news reporting type setting.

I have personally being fishing since I was 5, (and that is a very long time ago) but created this account mainly for my son when he started fishing; I was not looking to be a kid again!

I do agree that posting specific locations can backfire; most of us using the site initially were under the wrong impression that the only eyes seeing the reports were the other fellow Noreasters. But I guess there are many many others that just browse and chase.

Maybe there could be a section for kids to post reports, but the editor should not allow any pictures of locations. There is a Future Sharpies location, but there could be one for older kids.

Maybe there should be a paid section for subscribers only and thus we can help each other by providing general information about the fish migration patterns, etc. I know some call it report chasing, but instead of flipping a coin in the morning to guess where to go fishing, I can log and see reports from fellow Noreaters that I trust and they provide accurate reports.

So if someone that I trust says he caught 40 blues at beach A, I would rather go there. Or if another trusted Noreaster says the inlet was full of 30 lbders back in June, I would choose that location. This paid section will eliminate the many fake reports that we encounter from many newbies.


 
tiderunner70

Joined: 11/09/2003
Posts: 7171
Location: long island
 posted 10/10/2010 09:06 PM  

fishkidsb wrote:

Some have used this site as an instrument to get their kids out there to go fishing. Kids love to see their accomplishments published (today's kids have grown up using an ipod, ipad, facebook, blackberry to keep up to date even on the go!). The reports section was a way for them to show off their accomplishments to their friends, in an online news reporting type setting.

I have personally being fishing since I was 5, (and that is a very long time ago) but created this account mainly for my son when he started fishing; I was not looking to be a kid again!

I do agree that posting specific locations can backfire; most of us using the site initially were under the wrong impression that the only eyes seeing the reports were the other fellow Noreasters. But I guess there are many many others that just browse and chase.

Maybe there could be a section for kids to post reports, but the editor should not allow any pictures of locations. There is a Future Sharpies location, but there could be one for older kids.

Maybe there should be a paid section for subscribers only and thus we can help each other by providing general information about the fish migration patterns, etc. I know some call it report chasing, but instead of flipping a coin in the morning to guess where to go fishing, I can log and see reports from fellow Noreaters that I trust and they provide accurate reports.

So if someone that I trust says he caught 40 blues at beach A, I would rather go there. Or if another trusted Noreaster says the inlet was full of 30 lbders back in June, I would choose that location. This paid section will eliminate the many fake reports that we encounter from many newbies.




How about good old fashion get out there and pay your due's? If somebody posts they caught 40 anything the spot will be over run by all of the report hounds.


Tom Farrell
Vice President - New York Coalition for Recreational Fishing
[email protected]


MSA
LIBBA
 
fishkidsb


Joined: 07/01/2008
Posts: 1661
Location: Town
 posted 10/10/2010 09:24 PM  

We already have

I am talking about some of us that have already paid their dues; being out there, read the surf, and find the "SPOTS".

If I encounter a striper blitz at a beach, I have my fellow fishermen on broadcast text message, and they have my number too when they encounter the same. These are all seasoned fishermen who do not care about sharing such information. I am not talking about calling Channel 12 though to broadcast the news.

Here I am suggesting a subscription based, "paid their dues" type of dudes, thus Noreast maintains their internet click through rates, and maybe they make a few bucks too.


 
RichTrox
Noreast.com Club Member

Moderator
Surf Fishing Forum
Posted Reports
User Video Comments
Blogs

Joined: 10/07/2001
Posts: 4687
 posted 10/11/2010 03:13 PM  

The decisions regarding the posted reports will be made by a committee from within noreast. It will be based on information that we are privy to, the impact of the posted reports as we understand it, and the technical aspects (or limits) of what can be done with the discussion forum code.

You will still be able to post reports and pics. If all you want to do is brag, then you will still be able to. If you want to provide conditions (wind, tide, bait, surf/water clarity) that the rest of the community might find useful, then you will still be able to do that also.

As for misleading reports, it is not typically newbies that do this. This is usually done by more experienced members to mis-direct the masses. And speaking of masses, none of you have any idea how many unique hits the report section gets daily. I had an idea, but the lastest figures made my jaw hit the floor.

I've said this before and I'll repeat as many times as I have to. You have 3.3 million people living on an island that would be better suited to a million or less, and a lot of people fish, with new recruits pouring in every day. We also have very limited access (sometimes more limited due to birds and weather). So it is naive to think that posting a specific location on a public forum read by tens of thousands daily, would not have an impact.

If you want to be part of a group that shares information, then join a fishing club or develop a network of friends and coordinate your efforts. This site is not a fishing club, so it should not be confused with the functions of one. If you are looking to develop a network of friends, this site is a good place to do so, not neccessarily it's prime function, but a good place for it none the less. And it's function is not, nor should it ever be, to simply tell people where to go catch fish.

This is a fishing website, a place where all forms of fishing can be discussed with those of like mind. It is also a place where those of more experience may decide to pay something forward and take the time to usher in the next generation properly. To teach them how to think for themselves, what to look for, and how to act. To teach the culture as well as technical knowledge of fishing. This is what the sport needs, ESPECIALLY in this day and age of instant gratification.

So we will attempt to make the decisions on how best to serve this function. On how to bridge the gap between the technology of this age, and the culture of that which is much older, so that both sides of the fence can offer something to the whole.


Check out my weekly blog at Stripers247 View from the beach
Drive your car like your life depends on it.


This post edited by RichTrox 04:20 PM 10/11/2010
 
BennyBass


Joined: 10/06/2006
Posts: 2273
Location: Hauppauge N.Y
 posted 10/14/2010 07:03 PM  

Nice work Kevin and Rich !!. just my 2 cents and no disrespect BUT when you discuss these issue amongst the NorEast Privee make sure they are all surfcasters and not boat fisherman. I say this cause Boat fisherman really don't care about spots as they have vast miles of ocean they can fish unlike us Surf fisherman . I think you may have a few boat fisherman Mods that really don't understand the whole spot burning / to much info issues. Eitherway good to see that someone is trying to make an effort to curb specifics. For those of you that remember i used to be a regular poster on this site BUT got fedup with all the newbie spot burning. My friends and i found the most amazing fall fishery last fall and it didn't take long before it was totally ruined thanks to a bunch of report chasers and spot burners. Would love to see this all work out, i guess we shall see. Good Luckup

PS>> Belated Happy Birthday Rich upupup




LIBBA 1347
 
RichTrox
Noreast.com Club Member

Moderator
Surf Fishing Forum
Posted Reports
User Video Comments
Blogs

Joined: 10/07/2001
Posts: 4687
 posted 10/14/2010 11:59 PM  

Thanks Nartin, getting old is no funToungue

I think pretty much all of the boat mods, hell, all of the mods on this site recognize the issue for what it is, and all are on board with arriving at a solution. I think the best thing for everybody to do is just let us get this done and see how it flies. If modifications need to made down the road, I'm sure they will be done in due time. George is very committed to website improvement.


Check out my weekly blog at Stripers247 View from the beach
Drive your car like your life depends on it.
 
BennyBass


Joined: 10/06/2006
Posts: 2273
Location: Hauppauge N.Y
 posted 10/15/2010 06:08 PM  

Like i said to Kevin today" its all going to be a work in progress" and it will take time to tweek but i think in the end the results will be positive. I guess only time will tell. I wish Noreast and all involved with the new proposals luck , it's long over due. I think if everyone keeps an open mind to idea's the solutions will come easy.


LIBBA 1347
 
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