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ROBERT MOSES IS A ZOO

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tonytraf484


Joined: 08/24/2010
Posts: 42
 posted 02/01/2012 08:51 PM  
Everything we make is part of nature, including F250's. It is in our nature to construct things to thrive. When a bird constructs a nest - isn't that nest a part of nature. Therefore, when we construct things than, I say, those things become a part of nature. However, one UN-natural trait that we possess, which is not found anywhere in nature, is our impulse to protect other species and flora. I'm not saying that it is bad to protect our environment, just saying that a balance is needed. I for one could care less about the dodo or the plover. There are plenty of birds to do what birds do to maintain the balance. I say let the fox, the plover, and the F250's fight it out and see what nature decides.
 
frankiesurf

Joined: 05/26/2007
Posts: 1154
 posted 02/01/2012 10:38 PM  
tonytraf484 wrote:
Everything we make is part of nature, including F250's. It is in our nature to construct things to thrive. When a bird constructs a nest - isn't that nest a part of nature. Therefore, when we construct things than, I say, those things become a part of nature. However, one UN-natural trait that we possess, which is not found anywhere in nature, is our impulse to protect other species and flora. I'm not saying that it is bad to protect our environment, just saying that a balance is needed. I for one could care less about the dodo or the plover. There are plenty of birds to do what birds do to maintain the balance. I say let the fox, the plover, and the F250's fight it out and see what nature decides.




So should we design even bigger nets and boats to encompass everthing from the ocean floor to the surface and three miles across? To have these boats active wherever there are fish swimming or spawning?

If we make it possible to completely fish out whatever swimming species we can just by revoking every fisheries law we have and designing the tools to strip the sea bare does that make it the right thing to do?


Orrrrrrr, is all of this just a selfish " I love fishing so anything that prohibits making fishing easy for me should be killed" .

We have fisheries regulations to protect animals that can't protect themselves against the selfish ignoramus' that will exploit them at any chance. Why draw the line? These birds are the same as fish but they are interrupting fishermen who can't drive on the beach. This is exactly the same as those who complain about fisheries regulation. Rules that are meant to protect fish but put a damper on peoples fun out on the water.

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, "Waaaaaaahhhhhh" If people aren't crying about one thing they are crying about another and usually because they aren't allowed to do what they want to.

 
tonytraf484


Joined: 08/24/2010
Posts: 42
 posted 02/01/2012 10:45 PM  
If I may quote myself: "I'm not saying that it is bad to protect our environment, just saying that a balance is needed." Sorry that my most important point was hidden within amatuer philosophy.
 
frankiesurf

Joined: 05/26/2007
Posts: 1154
 posted 02/01/2012 10:57 PM  
But where do you draw the line? Man has the power destroy every animal on the planet. We have the power to rape the sea and completely annihilate your passion/hobby/what have you.

Are you okay with that? You are suggesting making a species extinct so we can go fishing more easily. It is really more about convenience than anything else really. If we were to sacrifice fish to keep birds alive then what is the difference?

The only difference that I can see is selfishness.
 
RichTrox
Noreast.com Club Member


Moderator
Surf Fishing Forum

Joined: 10/07/2001
Posts: 4391
Location: Patchogue
 posted 02/02/2012 01:53 AM  
Frankie, I think you're skewing a few points here. My point had nothing to do with selfishness what so ever.

First off, as stated earlier, we are part of nature. Like it or not, we are an apex predator and many species have been equipped with the necessary survival skills to co-exist with humans. Some, like the rat, have prospered due to our presence. Adaptability is the key issue of my argument. I'm not looking for anything to go extinct because it inconveniences me.

As proof of our susceptability to natural law, consider some of the points brought up about humans using antibiotics and medical means to perpetuate "weak-gened" humans. This may one day be our ultimate undoing, as nature has answered the rampant use of antibiotics with resistant strains of bacteria. If we continue to short-circuit natural selection in humans, we may pay a price down the road.

Some of the argument sounds like man is playing God too much, but not playing God enough. The argument can't be on both sides of the fence. We exist in the natural world and we have a great impact on it. We all know this. But there is a HUGE difference between man harvesting sustainable resources (fishing and hunting) and man taking draconian measures to save an animal that can't adapt.

It's sad that they can't, but I'll tell you now, nobody is saving that bird from extinction. And the last problem these birds have is f250 truck tires, which is why they're killing foxes. They're doing the same thing down in NC. But it simply won't be enough. Man has affected the balance of nature in many ways, directly and indirectly, and those species that can adapt, continue on.

Let's go back to fishing and hunting. We all fish here and some hunt. We fish and hunt species that are sustainable. The reason they are sustainable is that they are adaptable. They are able to prosper under a wide variety of conditions. If a species has the ability to do this, then they are a successful species. If they don't, then they eventually go extinct. We are not hunting this bird into extinction.

Change is the natural order of things. Conditions do not remain the same over time and the only thing that endures is change. Extinction is part of that natural order and has been going on long before man ever left his footprint in the sand. So with the huge impact we have made on this planet, on all levels, directly and indirectly, as part of nature, being an apex predator, what really is the solution? Man trying to undue what man has wrought?

Where would you begin LOL. What, we have too many foxes because we've killed off their natural predators and upset the balance of nature. Kill off other animals because we've upset the balance. We're part of the balance, and possessing intelligence and the ability to reason, we try to take reasonable measures to manage sustainable resources. Yes, we prune deer herds and manage fisheries, but thinking that you can prevent the extinction of this bird is folly.

You might have an outside shot at it if you close every beach in their entire range and literally kill EVERY predatory animal (let's include the hawks and other raptors in there also) in that range, for the next 20 years. and after you open the beaches up again, and people are allowed to return, and cats escape, and all the predators re-establish their range, then it'll happen all over again.

I have no ax to grind with that bird, but I understand nature, at least I attempt to.







Check out my weekly blog at Stripers247 View from the beach
Drive your car like your life depends on it.

This post edited by RichTrox 11:52 AM 02/02/2012
 
Azaiter


Joined: 09/01/2002
Posts: 6838
Location: new york city
 posted 02/02/2012 02:22 AM  
RichTrox wrote:
Frankie, I think you're skewing a few points here. My point had nothing to do with selfishness what so ever.

First off, as stated earlier, we are part of nature. Like it or not, we are an apex predator and many species have been equipped with the necessary survival skills to co-exist with humans. Some, like the rat, have prospered due to our presence. Adaptability is the key issue of my argument. I'm not looking for anything to go extinct because it inconveniences me.

As proof of our susceptability to natural law, consider some of the points brought up about humans using antibiotics and medical means to perpetuate "weak-gened" humans. This may one day be our ultimate undoing, as nature has answered the rampant use of antibiotics with resistant strains of bacteria. If we continue to short-circuit natural selection in humans, we may pay a price down the road.

Some of the argument sounds like man is playing God too much, but not playing God enough. The argument can't be on both sides of the fence. We exist in the natural world and we have a great impact on it. We all know this. But there is a HUGE difference between man harvesting sustainable resources (fishing and hunting) and man taking draconian measures to save an animal that can't adapt.

It's sad that they can't, but I'll tell you now, nobody is saving that bird from extinction. And the last problem these birds have is f250 truck tires, which is why they're killing foxes. They're doing the same thing down in NC. But it simply won't be enough. Man has affected the balance of nature in many ways, directly and indirectly, and those species that can adapt, continue on.

Let's go back to fishing and hunting. We all fish here and some hunt. We fish and hunt species that are sustainable. The reason they are sustainable is that they are adaptable. They are able to prosper under a wide variety of conditions. If a species has the ability to do this, then they are a successful species. If they don't, then they eventually go extinct. We are not hunting this bird into extinction.

Change is the natural order of things. Conditions do not remain the same over time and the only thing that endures is change. Extinction is part of that natural order and has been going on long before man ever left his footprint in the sand. So with the huge impact we have made on this planet, on all levels, directly and indirectly, as part of nature, being an apex predator, what really is the solution? Man trying to undue what man has wrought?

Where would you begin LOL. What, we have too many foxes because we've killed off their natural predators and upset the balance of nature. Kill off other animals because we've upset the balance. We're part of the balance, and possessing intelligence and the ability to reason, we try to take reasonable measures to manage sustainable resources. Yes, we prune deer herds and manage fisheries, but thinking that you can prevent the extinction of this bird is folly.

You might have an outside shot at it if you close every beach in their entire range and literally kill EVERY predatory animal (let's include the hawks and other raptors in there also) in that range, for the next 20 years. and after you open the beaches up again, and people are allowed to return, and cats escape, and all the predators re-establish their range, then it'll happen all over again.

I have no ax to grind with that bird, but I understand nature, at least I attempt to.

WOW...Rich..one of the best post I ever had reed in the noreast..you are right in every point and logic of this one...good job...Fred






I love God I love my family I love Fishing I love my country...Love it's everything that make me happy,thanks God for love

This post edited by RichTrox 11:51 AM 02/02/2012
 
stpaul7
BIG DOG WINNER
2010

Joined: 04/23/2002
Posts: 15999
Location: Moriches
 posted 02/02/2012 04:53 AM  
Hey Frankie your Human, you contribute to the destruction of the world everyday too. There's no way around it, you drive to work so your driving in a machine that pollutes the air on some paved road that was put there over some Pipping Plover nests Toungue and it goes on and on and on.

Just busting your chops Go eat an egg for breakfast oh Crap we killing the chicken too. You can't change it, Hey thank god the spring is all most here. wait you wouldn't want to put a big ol Trible hook in a Fishy Mouth now would ya ToungueToungueToungue

Pipping Plover and beach Access you can debate it here for EVER


BOAT FISH COUNT  MAMA MIA FISHING
 
tman1

Joined: 11/01/2002
Posts: 890
Location: West Sayville, NY
 posted 02/02/2012 07:45 AM  
Hunt n' Fish wrote:
MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with Frankie! surprise


To say this is a matter of natural selection is far from fact. The animal populations in that micro environment of Fire Island are heavily influenced by man's actions. Fox trapping and hunting is legal and going on, on the rest of Long Island currently (as this is the season). There are too many deer on Fire Island because of man. Feral cats don't belong anywhere in the environment and should all be shot. ." surprise

[quote]



Well said.... and let's shoot the people that release them!
 
stpaul7
BIG DOG WINNER
2010

Joined: 04/23/2002
Posts: 15999
Location: Moriches
 posted 02/02/2012 07:58 AM  
Killing animals to save animals
06 05 11 - 15:49
Last year, the National Park Service predator management team removed a total of 594 animals.

They were “targeted” species and were removed to protect threatened or endangered shorebirds and sea turtles.

The numbers are detailed in the seashore’s Predator Management Annual Report for 2010.

The list of “removed” predators includes:
•130 raccoons
•111 opossums and 220 opossum kits
•8 minks
•47 nutrias
•5 gray foxes
•2 coyotes
•9 red foxes
•61 feral cats

The feral cats, captured in live cages, were taken to the Dare County SPCA.

The rest of the animals died in traps or were euthanized.

The killing of animals to protect other animals is one part of the park’s resource management that most people have difficulty accepting.

The park is required to do it to protect piping plovers and oystercatchers and some other birds. And, apparently, the environmental groups that sued the Park Service over its lack of an off-road vehicle plan on the seashore have no problem with the killing of animals to save the birds.

I once asked a Defenders of Wildlife staff member about the killing of predators, and his answer was more or less that sacrifices must be made to save threatened species.

Perhaps killing these animals led to the above average nesting season for piping plovers and oystercatchers last year – or maybe not.

In 2010, 15 piping plover chicks and 30 oystercatcher chicks successfully fledged.

The National Park Service has been developing a predator control management plan for several years now.

Cape Hatteras National Seashore Superintendent Mike Murray says the plan is still a “priority” for the park staff, but has taken a back seat to the ORV management plan. The ORV special regulation, the next step in that plan, is already running months behind the originally announced schedule.

“Once we have a final ORV rule,” Murray said, “then staff will complete the predator control plan for protected species management and environmental assessment, which will likely take approximately 4-6 months to finalize. In the meantime, staff continue to follow existing guidance.”

One assumes that the killing of predators will continue under any plan that is developed.

According to the annual report, “internal guidance” restricts trapping and animal control activities to within one mile of where protected bird species were located during the last three years. And that would include most of the beaches, since piping plovers, oystercatchers, and colonial waterbirds nest all along the seashore.

Also, the report details “incidental captures” – the capture of species not targeted.

Last year’s incidental captures included 12 diamondback terrapin, three mud/musk turtles, two yellowbelly sliders, 13 American crow, three clapper rail, seven brown-headed cowbirds, 13 European starlings, 21 grackle, 23 Eastern cottontail rabbits, and one muskrat.

Most of the birds and rabbits were caught in live cages and released unharmed, the report says.

Some of the turtles weren’t so lucky.

Diamondback terrapins are listed as a species of concern in North Carolina. Twelve were caught in traps on Ocracoke intended for minks. Eight of them died in the body-gripping traps, and four were released unharmed.

The Park Service says in the annual report that it will institute “mitigation” measures to reduce the incidental take of the diamondback terrapins.

It’s also worth noting that the Park Service added a full-time trapper to the seashore staff last year.


CLICK HERE THERE ANNUAL REPORT




BOAT FISH COUNT  MAMA MIA FISHING
 
f150OffRoad


Joined: 03/26/2011
Posts: 313
Location: W. Hamptons
 posted 02/02/2012 09:40 AM  
I am convinced that most are missing the fact that the fight is not against little birds, but against the people that use these birds to impose their ideologies. Their hidden agenda is to satisfy the convoluted interests of their different member groups, who pay them BIG $ to do so, at the expense of most.

Some groups do not like the Oil Companies, so they go out and hire "experts" to find ways to stop any oil exploration expansion by using some plant or species as the "real" cause. Some groups do not like to see anyone at the open beaches, because they belong to the beach front owners, or to the ones that believe it should be free of autos, surfers, fishermen, or any other fun activity group.

So do not try to be the expert on topics that you have not been invloved with, nor are familiar with the real politics behind the stage. I hope you watched the video above, although it is one sided, some of us have been directly affected by those events.

The bottom line is that there have been many new studies that have proven that plovers survival is actually improved when co-existing with humans. The real threat is not humans, but the weather, and predators, which have an easier time killg them when humans or automobiles are not around. As these studies have been introduced, what do you think these groups are planning to do? Say we were wrong and the plover is not affected by humans sharing the beach? NO WAY That would be too costly to them! They will now find another reason to keep the beaches closed, and their altimate goal is to SHUT DOWN ALL BEACHES. Once they obtain a court win, then every town is going to follow suit and close the beaches to the public.

So it's not about the little bird guys.

Don't take my word because I am on on side. Read the article below which is not biased and it pointing points on both sides:

www.krisfrieswick.com/Files/globe_081411.pdf
Besides, did you really think I was gonna go after a little bird? But if any of those extremists walks by me, thats another story.

Save the Seals
they make the Perfect Pets

This post edited by f150OffRoad 09:42 AM 02/02/2012
 
stpaul7
BIG DOG WINNER
2010

Joined: 04/23/2002
Posts: 15999
Location: Moriches
 posted 02/04/2012 03:33 AM  
Little Birdy Why do you Fly upside down




BOAT FISH COUNT  MAMA MIA FISHING
 
f150OffRoad


Joined: 03/26/2011
Posts: 313
Location: W. Hamptons
 posted 02/04/2012 02:41 PM  
Here is the link for some important local people who's only motive is to close access to all south shore beaches, as they want to get the same glory their NC terrorist group did:

Aud Terrorists

Please watch this film which describes the events as they occured:
(It has nothing to do with Little Birds Survival)


Save the Seals
they make the Perfect Pets

This post edited by f150OffRoad 02:59 PM 02/04/2012
 
eisey


Joined: 11/21/2004
Posts: 2203
Location: Moses to MTK
 posted 02/07/2012 01:51 PM  
I think I saw him at the Giants parade.

Bob Eisey,  LIBBA 1002,  MSA 295
 
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